War casualty flights shunned by union
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War casualty flights shunned by union
From todays Times
I would have thought that if the country goes to war BALPA might be a bit more flexible in its interpretation of the rules, especially to help badly wounded troops to get to medical treatment.
AIRLINE pilots will refuse to fly aircraft chartered to evacuate casualties of war because the Government is seeking to relax flight safety rules.
The Department for Transport has produced a draft directive requiring civilian pilots flying jets chartered by the Armed Forces to work for more than 19 consecutive hours, six hours more than the present legal limit.
The Government is negotiating contracts with several airlines to provide aircraft and crews to evacuate the injured and to ferry troops and supplies. It wants to change safety rules to allow for the special circumstances of waging war.
The DfT directive, a copy of which has been obtained by The Times, says that pilots operating medical flights can have their duty hours extended by four hours beyond the present 13hr 15min maximum. Pilots can be ordered to work for 70 hours a week, 15 hours more than the existing 55-hour limit. Rest periods between shifts have also been cut to a minimum of nine hours.
The British Airline Pilots’ Association (Balpa) said the rule changes could lead to an exhausted pilot making a fatal error after a 19-hour day. Trevor Phillips, Balpa’s head of scheduling, said: “It is clearly unsafe to allow such huge increases in the duty period. The existing safety rules are there for a reason but this directive would mean pilots returning over densely populated areas when they are dangerously fatigued.”
Balpa is advising its members to refuse to undertake such flights and is calling on airlines not to sign contracts unless safety standards are maintained. Military pilots are already permitted to work much longer hours than civilian pilots, but they are given pills to keep them alert. Civilian pilots are banned from taking any stimulants.
Any evacuation flights are expected to fly from Cyprus or Kuwait. The flight time to London from Cyprus is about five hours but the chartered aircraft would take an hour longer when carrying casualties as they would have to fly at a lower altitude to maintain the optimum flow of oxygen.
The Department for Transport has produced a draft directive requiring civilian pilots flying jets chartered by the Armed Forces to work for more than 19 consecutive hours, six hours more than the present legal limit.
The Government is negotiating contracts with several airlines to provide aircraft and crews to evacuate the injured and to ferry troops and supplies. It wants to change safety rules to allow for the special circumstances of waging war.
The DfT directive, a copy of which has been obtained by The Times, says that pilots operating medical flights can have their duty hours extended by four hours beyond the present 13hr 15min maximum. Pilots can be ordered to work for 70 hours a week, 15 hours more than the existing 55-hour limit. Rest periods between shifts have also been cut to a minimum of nine hours.
The British Airline Pilots’ Association (Balpa) said the rule changes could lead to an exhausted pilot making a fatal error after a 19-hour day. Trevor Phillips, Balpa’s head of scheduling, said: “It is clearly unsafe to allow such huge increases in the duty period. The existing safety rules are there for a reason but this directive would mean pilots returning over densely populated areas when they are dangerously fatigued.”
Balpa is advising its members to refuse to undertake such flights and is calling on airlines not to sign contracts unless safety standards are maintained. Military pilots are already permitted to work much longer hours than civilian pilots, but they are given pills to keep them alert. Civilian pilots are banned from taking any stimulants.
Any evacuation flights are expected to fly from Cyprus or Kuwait. The flight time to London from Cyprus is about five hours but the chartered aircraft would take an hour longer when carrying casualties as they would have to fly at a lower altitude to maintain the optimum flow of oxygen.
Doesn't it come down to cost?
I.e. they could evacuate a given amount of casualties by chartering more aircraft and staying WITHIN the current FTL's.
I agree that different rules apply in war but FTL'S are about safety.
I.e. they could evacuate a given amount of casualties by chartering more aircraft and staying WITHIN the current FTL's.
I agree that different rules apply in war but FTL'S are about safety.
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More likely it's the British government attempting to wage war on the cheap
Spartacan, you took the words out of my mouth ( keyboard ).
If the rules are set as present to ensure that safety margins are not eroded, why should the general public and / or injured troops accept a reduced safety margin, e.g just because the UK Government want to save a few quid.
Mind you, I'll bet that there's some small print in the DfT contracts that let's them off the hook should a knackered civvy pilot manage to prang his aircraft after being awake for +24 hours !
If the rules are set as present to ensure that safety margins are not eroded, why should the general public and / or injured troops accept a reduced safety margin, e.g just because the UK Government want to save a few quid.
Mind you, I'll bet that there's some small print in the DfT contracts that let's them off the hook should a knackered civvy pilot manage to prang his aircraft after being awake for +24 hours !
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Jet11 as am active Balpa member who has (like many of my colleagues) volounteered for this task I am sure I and my colleagues will do all that is necessary for the task in hand relevant to the the circumstances pertaining at the time.This government dispensation will allow planned rostering 3 weeks in advance by the operators of duty periods way in excess of what is currently considered prudent and many would say that is far to generous.3 weeks in advance is not an emergency!!!!.The thinking is not joined up.Is the government trying to skimp on the cost of repatriating injured personnel by permitting the planning in advance of what would be considered an unacceptable standard of operation.What are your plans for the forthcoming war?????.You clearly enjoy union bashing.
Just a numbered other
In my operational days it was always the crabs hiding behind 'crew duty time'.
Will the crews at Lyneham and Brize be flying these extended hours?
I doubt it.
If the government reqire these extended flghts, then crew them properly so that the bloke with the stick remains alert.
Will the crews at Lyneham and Brize be flying these extended hours?
I doubt it.
If the government reqire these extended flghts, then crew them properly so that the bloke with the stick remains alert.
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well Stampe, by accepting the stretched FTLs as pilots you are also providing ammunition for European Governments to argue the case for increasing FTLs to 14 hours. Do not think it will wash too well when they say "but you were able to do longer FDs for medivacs" and you say "Ahh but that was different!"
QUE???
QUE???
Arkroyal:
I assume that you were a fish head or an airey fairey? When I was a crab in Transport Command we frequently flew 22 hour duties when the sh*t was in the fan. I also once did a 42 hour duty with a double crew (not to be recommended).
By the way, did you chaps actually have an aeroplane that didn't run out of fuel after a couple of hours?
I assume that you were a fish head or an airey fairey? When I was a crab in Transport Command we frequently flew 22 hour duties when the sh*t was in the fan. I also once did a 42 hour duty with a double crew (not to be recommended).
By the way, did you chaps actually have an aeroplane that didn't run out of fuel after a couple of hours?
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Arkroyal
As an ex crab. I'm with JW411 on this - I have never seen or even heard of anyone quoteing FTL's in time of emergency - especially on medevac duties.
As an ex crab. I'm with JW411 on this - I have never seen or even heard of anyone quoteing FTL's in time of emergency - especially on medevac duties.
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The Department for Transport has produced a draft directive requiring....
As Cabin Crew, I've also volunteered, like Stampe to work these flights, as have many others in the company (I'm aware that pilot hours are more important and more limiting). On the day, I'd be happy to work whatever hours were appropriate to get the job done: Surely that's what discretion is intended for?
I can well understand that pilots might be twitchy about massively extended FDP's followed by reduced rest on a recurrent basis. Let's face it, 9 hours rest never is 9 hours rest. The transport is never there, the beds are still occupied, the company has just faxed changes to your room which is located adjacent to the afterburner engine run bay.
Seems to me that one group of bean counters hasn't been talking to the other group
That's my dime
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In time of emrgency I would be only too willing to work beyond any limitation if it meant potentially saving lives. However seeking to change to such limits several weeks in advance seems to me to be trying to take advantage of the situation. I smell a rat here. I'm with BALPA on this 100%.
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We would all be prepared to go the extra mile to get injured troops home, but this is just about avoiding the cost of positioning crews out to Cyprus.
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Where do I sign up !!!!
If you were in pain and had sustained wounds for your country, would you not wish to be brought home as quickly as possible, so you could be nearer your loved ones.
Enough of the clap trap about FTL's, if we go to war then lets fully support our troops even if it means going that extra mile or duty hours. Your not out there with your neck on the chopping block they are.
War is a new set of rules played differently by all sides, lets just forget ourselves, and if necessary give 110% and get the job done.
Ever Heard of a Heavy Crew to help eleviate fatigue.
Support our Boys and Girls and stop complaining.
If you were in pain and had sustained wounds for your country, would you not wish to be brought home as quickly as possible, so you could be nearer your loved ones.
Enough of the clap trap about FTL's, if we go to war then lets fully support our troops even if it means going that extra mile or duty hours. Your not out there with your neck on the chopping block they are.
War is a new set of rules played differently by all sides, lets just forget ourselves, and if necessary give 110% and get the job done.
Ever Heard of a Heavy Crew to help eleviate fatigue.
Support our Boys and Girls and stop complaining.
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<<Ever Heard of a Heavy Crew to help eleviate fatigue>>
Exactly - if a heavy crew had been proposed, then there would be no need for the directive!
i.e. its all about saving money, NOT getting people home.
NoD
Exactly - if a heavy crew had been proposed, then there would be no need for the directive!
i.e. its all about saving money, NOT getting people home.
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Using discretion to extend FTLs in an emergency is one thing. Planning an emergency weeks in advance is taking the Mickey, though. 
Don't let them talk you into breaking safety guidelines for the sake of a few pennies (compared to the total cost of going to war) by appealing to your sense of national pride and standing shoulder to shoulder and all that rubbish.
Don't let them talk you into breaking safety guidelines for the sake of a few pennies (compared to the total cost of going to war) by appealing to your sense of national pride and standing shoulder to shoulder and all that rubbish.
Night_fr8, I think you have missed the point.
I am sure that no crew member is going to refuse to extend the duty day when it is necessary to save life when "circumstances warrant such action".
However, this is pre-meditated. There must surely be enough spare capacity amongst all the operators to fly any such mission within the normal parameters especially given the current downturn in business.
As has been previously stated why should the normal FTLs be conveniently ignored? I would have thought that our own "kith and kin" deserve the protection of all the normal rules and regulations. Why make an exception in this case?
I am sure that no crew member is going to refuse to extend the duty day when it is necessary to save life when "circumstances warrant such action".
However, this is pre-meditated. There must surely be enough spare capacity amongst all the operators to fly any such mission within the normal parameters especially given the current downturn in business.
As has been previously stated why should the normal FTLs be conveniently ignored? I would have thought that our own "kith and kin" deserve the protection of all the normal rules and regulations. Why make an exception in this case?
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I have not missed the point
The FTL's proposed in the EU for JAA Operations are the current hot potato in the European Flight Crew Associations, thus BALPA has seen this proposed increase as a means of making a point.
This is not the time to make a point, but it is a time to rally round and prove we are not a bunch of die hard unionists (remember SABENA )
The FTL's proposed in the EU for JAA Operations are the current hot potato in the European Flight Crew Associations, thus BALPA has seen this proposed increase as a means of making a point.
This is not the time to make a point, but it is a time to rally round and prove we are not a bunch of die hard unionists (remember SABENA )
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There's a very simple solution to this.
The authorities in question must PLAN the operation based on existing FTLs.
If the operation goes off the rails then crews should be given EXTRAORDINARY discretion to extend where necessary.
Thus the FTLs are respected in principal and crews are allowed help the war effort if thats their choice (as volunteers).
The authorities in question must PLAN the operation based on existing FTLs.
If the operation goes off the rails then crews should be given EXTRAORDINARY discretion to extend where necessary.
Thus the FTLs are respected in principal and crews are allowed help the war effort if thats their choice (as volunteers).