UAL on Deathwatch
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And I guess that the OTT well-publicised airport security panics of the past few days by both the American and British governments has probably put the last few nails in United's coffin - not to mention some others too. 
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Well, Good luck to all of them, but without trying to start a huge war here, what goes around comes around...
I say this from the perspective of one who has been through this over 13 yrs ago, and UAL ALPO had no use for us at that time, so there you have it....
I say this from the perspective of one who has been through this over 13 yrs ago, and UAL ALPO had no use for us at that time, so there you have it....
Yes, UAL is on a "deathwatch"; but, quite frankly, what did they expect. 3 years ago, it was all about what a great contract they got after a summer "slowdown", WOE 'em program, Max Safety,whatever you call a job action. I read it at the time and couldn't believe management (or what passes for management at UAL) signed it. The next quarter, the losses were piling up.
Down3Green: I take it your ex-EAL like me. It sure would be nice if ALPA would even try to work together among the councils, but NOOOOO!!! The DAL guys couldn't have been more arrogant, it they had tried. It was like GOD, himself, chose them to be airline pilots. Well, you got it right. But, then again, we didn't offer beans to the Braniff guys when we took over the South American routes and we got that back from the Sky Gods from DFW.
Down3Green: I take it your ex-EAL like me. It sure would be nice if ALPA would even try to work together among the councils, but NOOOOO!!! The DAL guys couldn't have been more arrogant, it they had tried. It was like GOD, himself, chose them to be airline pilots. Well, you got it right. But, then again, we didn't offer beans to the Braniff guys when we took over the South American routes and we got that back from the Sky Gods from DFW.
TC
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The unions at United will moan and groan and posture until about March 15. Then the judge will impose drastically reduced pay rates and work rules. Starfish will be created with a separate seniority list and even lower pay scale.
Still, it may be too late to avoid a shutdown as the Fortune article speculates.
My friends over at UAL were still in denial until quite recently. They assured me that there was no way that the ATSB could deny the loan, that United was just too big to fail. Why, three years ago they were the world's largest, most profitable airline. As always happens, the fingerpointing will continue long after the company is gone.
Tilton has been in the airline business since September, maybe he can pull a rabbit out of a hat, maybe not...
Still, it may be too late to avoid a shutdown as the Fortune article speculates.
My friends over at UAL were still in denial until quite recently. They assured me that there was no way that the ATSB could deny the loan, that United was just too big to fail. Why, three years ago they were the world's largest, most profitable airline. As always happens, the fingerpointing will continue long after the company is gone.
Tilton has been in the airline business since September, maybe he can pull a rabbit out of a hat, maybe not...
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Hey G.F.
Just to set the record straight on the Braniff scope clause:
at the EAL MEC meeting in Chicago, just after the Braniff route purchase was announced Jack B. , J.J.'s caddy from alpa national came to the meeting and recommended that we take some Braniff crews with the routes. This being my first meeting and being quite naive to the political nature of alpa and also having many Braniff friends and neighbors I, with the aid of a few other on the northeast bases MEC's put a motion on the floor to take Braniff crews. Talk about the south will rise again, the tar and feathers were being stirred up in Hotlanta.
Col. Frank B. also made it clear that he didn't want any crews with the routes. After speaking with both alpa DC and members of the Braniff MEC we found that the Braniff Scope clause only mentioned aircraft, not routes. Sort of easy out. Huh?
Just to set the record straight on the Braniff scope clause:
at the EAL MEC meeting in Chicago, just after the Braniff route purchase was announced Jack B. , J.J.'s caddy from alpa national came to the meeting and recommended that we take some Braniff crews with the routes. This being my first meeting and being quite naive to the political nature of alpa and also having many Braniff friends and neighbors I, with the aid of a few other on the northeast bases MEC's put a motion on the floor to take Braniff crews. Talk about the south will rise again, the tar and feathers were being stirred up in Hotlanta.
Col. Frank B. also made it clear that he didn't want any crews with the routes. After speaking with both alpa DC and members of the Braniff MEC we found that the Braniff Scope clause only mentioned aircraft, not routes. Sort of easy out. Huh?
Folks, just two simple, objective questions here. Aside from United's problems, is it not true that during that infamous summer, United's pilots decided to fly only their planned monthly schedules, and not volunteer to fly extra? I know nothing about their MEC's other decisions, whether considered reasonable or not. But there is evidence that they warned mgmt numerous times about a worsening staff shortage problem, to no avail.
Are your days off yours, or are they are not? Excluding pilots on reserve/standby, whose contracts sometimes allow them to be drafted for extra flying on a day off.
This is just a simple question, and if my airline asked me to fly an extra one-day trip on a certain weekend (or two?) which I had bid around, in order to spend it with a young family member who will be gone to college in a few years, then my decision is not difficult to imagine. Anyone who claims that any days off should be 'fair game' for an employer is either insincere, or should not be involved in business decisions, at least outside of Iraq.
Under-staffing has been the nature of operations for many years at FEDEX and Southwest, in order to reduce the need for extra pilots, which cost more than paying somebody an extra "trip" or one and a half times the normal pay rate as incentive. This extra flying is supposedly the only way that the newer SWA pilots can find any money for their retirement funds.
Are your days off yours, or are they are not? Excluding pilots on reserve/standby, whose contracts sometimes allow them to be drafted for extra flying on a day off.
This is just a simple question, and if my airline asked me to fly an extra one-day trip on a certain weekend (or two?) which I had bid around, in order to spend it with a young family member who will be gone to college in a few years, then my decision is not difficult to imagine. Anyone who claims that any days off should be 'fair game' for an employer is either insincere, or should not be involved in business decisions, at least outside of Iraq.
Under-staffing has been the nature of operations for many years at FEDEX and Southwest, in order to reduce the need for extra pilots, which cost more than paying somebody an extra "trip" or one and a half times the normal pay rate as incentive. This extra flying is supposedly the only way that the newer SWA pilots can find any money for their retirement funds.
Last edited by Ignition Override; 18th Feb 2003 at 04:28.
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Bumper stickers in DEN:
FULL PAY TILL THE LAST DAY
No wonder theyr'e in so much trouble. Yes, there have been some incredible blunders by management. But they are up against the wall and it is time for action, not bickering and infighting. I just can't believe how fast the wheels are coming off UAL.
It is time for STRONG Leadership. If I were Tilton, I would gather the union heads in a room, say this ($) is what we need, and let them work it out or the lights go out. Simple.
FULL PAY TILL THE LAST DAY
No wonder theyr'e in so much trouble. Yes, there have been some incredible blunders by management. But they are up against the wall and it is time for action, not bickering and infighting. I just can't believe how fast the wheels are coming off UAL.
It is time for STRONG Leadership. If I were Tilton, I would gather the union heads in a room, say this ($) is what we need, and let them work it out or the lights go out. Simple.
IMHO there is little doubt that UAL is history in it's current form. There is no way back from the situation they are in. A good proportion of the operation may end up being split into different companies but UAL as we know it today has had it.
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Ignition Overide....
You are correct in your comments about the staffing problems during the summer of love......
We have (had) kind of a funny pay situation here up till the furloughs.....
You were paid a guarantee of 75 hours, Reserve or lineholder.
You could fly, in any one month, up to 83 Hard Hours domestic, and 85 Hard Hours domestic. This was waived for carry in's, that portion of a trip that starts near then end of the month and carries into the new month.
(For those who don't know, Hard Hours are what you actually fly, Soft hours are pay that you are given for extensive layovers, where you are forced to stay at a hotel or field layovers. When I was on the 737, some days scedules us only one leg, but we were guaranteed 5 hours credit time. )
Now, credit time was virtually unlimited. If you were like me, fairly senior on the 767, you could either pick up overtime to 85 hours or bid months with carryings that would brink you up to 90 hours hard time. The Soft time in thes months would be well over a 100 hours credit. I had many months like that.
Now the strange part, we are only paid 85 hours a month maxium. Any credit time over that is put into a bank, and later either trip dropped or, in the month of November, cashed completely out.
What happend in the Summer of love, there was peer group pressure not to fly over your line. Most people did not. If you did, your monthly schedule was posted on the walls, along with some disparaging remarks about your lineage...
As an example, in the early 1990's, UAL pilots got to option to trip trade. A union study concluded that trip trading would cost 150 wide body captain jobs, and 300 narrow body captain jobs.
When people ceased flying over what the line builders scheduled, UAL was short 450 pilots.
********
Down in 3 Green, UAL had former Eastern Pilots in the interview process.....If your name was not in the yellow sheet, you can bet you recieved preferential hiring....we picked up a lot of good Eastern Men, good pilots and good people. On the 727, it was not unusual for me to have both a former Eastern pilot in both the right seat and on the panel. United ALPA went out of its way to help the Eastern guys........if they didn't perform work as a permanent replacement.
You are correct in your comments about the staffing problems during the summer of love......
We have (had) kind of a funny pay situation here up till the furloughs.....
You were paid a guarantee of 75 hours, Reserve or lineholder.
You could fly, in any one month, up to 83 Hard Hours domestic, and 85 Hard Hours domestic. This was waived for carry in's, that portion of a trip that starts near then end of the month and carries into the new month.
(For those who don't know, Hard Hours are what you actually fly, Soft hours are pay that you are given for extensive layovers, where you are forced to stay at a hotel or field layovers. When I was on the 737, some days scedules us only one leg, but we were guaranteed 5 hours credit time. )
Now, credit time was virtually unlimited. If you were like me, fairly senior on the 767, you could either pick up overtime to 85 hours or bid months with carryings that would brink you up to 90 hours hard time. The Soft time in thes months would be well over a 100 hours credit. I had many months like that.
Now the strange part, we are only paid 85 hours a month maxium. Any credit time over that is put into a bank, and later either trip dropped or, in the month of November, cashed completely out.
What happend in the Summer of love, there was peer group pressure not to fly over your line. Most people did not. If you did, your monthly schedule was posted on the walls, along with some disparaging remarks about your lineage...
As an example, in the early 1990's, UAL pilots got to option to trip trade. A union study concluded that trip trading would cost 150 wide body captain jobs, and 300 narrow body captain jobs.
When people ceased flying over what the line builders scheduled, UAL was short 450 pilots.
********
Down in 3 Green, UAL had former Eastern Pilots in the interview process.....If your name was not in the yellow sheet, you can bet you recieved preferential hiring....we picked up a lot of good Eastern Men, good pilots and good people. On the 727, it was not unusual for me to have both a former Eastern pilot in both the right seat and on the panel. United ALPA went out of its way to help the Eastern guys........if they didn't perform work as a permanent replacement.
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Thanks, A-V-8R
I have been trying to defend the reasoning behind the 'summer of love' to the people on A.net--generally to no avail.
We all know airlines chronically understaff and expect us to pick up the slack. Penny wise and pound foolish. Then managment uses the lackeys in the press to bash us when we don't cover their butts.
Good luck. TC
We all know airlines chronically understaff and expect us to pick up the slack. Penny wise and pound foolish. Then managment uses the lackeys in the press to bash us when we don't cover their butts.
Good luck. TC
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No time to point fingers now
It's very sad that the possible demise of United is causing so much antagonism. Does it really matter at this point who did or said what? It's way beyond that.
All I know is with both Europe and the U.S in a severe economic turndown, that for every United person who is let go if they can't come out of bankruptcy, it will mean an additional 10 jobs lost for every United person who is let go whether this be a caterer / supply / parts / cleaning / fueling professions etc.
Does arguing who was really to blame for the current mess make sense to anybody? I hope not as you are professionals of the highest regard and this squablling needs to stop before UAL and their employees are thrown out of work not to mention the other million plus people who will also be out of work.
Sorry if I'm out of line
All I know is with both Europe and the U.S in a severe economic turndown, that for every United person who is let go if they can't come out of bankruptcy, it will mean an additional 10 jobs lost for every United person who is let go whether this be a caterer / supply / parts / cleaning / fueling professions etc.
Does arguing who was really to blame for the current mess make sense to anybody? I hope not as you are professionals of the highest regard and this squablling needs to stop before UAL and their employees are thrown out of work not to mention the other million plus people who will also be out of work.
Sorry if I'm out of line
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I recall the days in EWR where we had to use the UAL parking lot to get to the terminal, and we shared the crew bus with UAL crews.
One fellow glared at me, and said "We'll bury you."
One fellow glared at me, and said "We'll bury you."
Let's not forget those pilots and other employees at United Express (Atlantic Coast etc.... and Mesa?), who need mainline United to feed them passengers and vice versa.
Many of these folks also have children to feed and shelter-heaven help those who lose group medical insurance.
The govt needs to back off from the very high ticket taxes which are helping to suffocate the airlines. It is reported by our company that 25% of the average AIRLINE ticket price consists of government TAXES, and this does not include all of the taxes for security.
Could it possibly open up some of the (secret) Strategic Fuel Reserves, possibly leading to cheaper fuel in the US?
Many of these folks also have children to feed and shelter-heaven help those who lose group medical insurance.
The govt needs to back off from the very high ticket taxes which are helping to suffocate the airlines. It is reported by our company that 25% of the average AIRLINE ticket price consists of government TAXES, and this does not include all of the taxes for security.
Could it possibly open up some of the (secret) Strategic Fuel Reserves, possibly leading to cheaper fuel in the US?
Last edited by Ignition Override; 19th Feb 2003 at 03:41.
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Milking The Dead Cow
It is said that guru Tilton and his family's "temporary" accommodation at the Four Season's Hotel at downtown Chicago (not near the airport nor near UAL's World Headquarters) are costing the company $18,000 per month...Not to mention Tilton's $950,000 annual salary, plus $3 Million "signing" bonus, plus $4.8 Million compensation for lost pension benefits at his former employer, plus entitlements to "future" bonuses, including 200% of his "base" salary.
...Meanwhile the company still is burning something like $9 Million cash daily.
...Meanwhile the company still is burning something like $9 Million cash daily.
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I think you can sum up United's problems very quickly. They are a misfit of the industry, they have developed huge infrastructures and have high wage employees with very low productivity because of narrow job descriptions and unreasonable work rules.
They also never had peaceful labour relations because of the multiple workforces brought together through mergers. It's got to the point now where there is no way to solve these issues in a normal negotiation between two sides.
They also never had peaceful labour relations because of the multiple workforces brought together through mergers. It's got to the point now where there is no way to solve these issues in a normal negotiation between two sides.
Evertonian
To all the UAL staff out there.
If you enjoyed your job, loved your company & were proud to wear your uniform, do whatever you can to save your company! If you can survive on a lower wage, take it. If it's the only life you know, accept it. If you don't give a stuff...walk away & let someone else in.
My company died through a number of reasons, but if you are like the Ansett staff, then you'd want to do anything to keep it alive. We flew for 65 years until bean counters took over & we then died a slow & agonising death.
Sure the management will try one over on you, but tell your unions to watch them and keep the dialogue going. Don't let the unions talk your way out of a job.
Good luck to all at UAL.
If you enjoyed your job, loved your company & were proud to wear your uniform, do whatever you can to save your company! If you can survive on a lower wage, take it. If it's the only life you know, accept it. If you don't give a stuff...walk away & let someone else in.
My company died through a number of reasons, but if you are like the Ansett staff, then you'd want to do anything to keep it alive. We flew for 65 years until bean counters took over & we then died a slow & agonising death.
Sure the management will try one over on you, but tell your unions to watch them and keep the dialogue going. Don't let the unions talk your way out of a job.
Good luck to all at UAL.
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>>They also never had peaceful labour relations because of the multiple workforces brought together through mergers.<<
Perhaps you have UAL confused with another carrier... Delta, US Airways, Northwest and American have had much more merger activity over the past three decades than UAL.
Perhaps you have UAL confused with another carrier... Delta, US Airways, Northwest and American have had much more merger activity over the past three decades than UAL.
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Aibubba, I'm just pointing out one if the reasons for their malaise, it's not the crucial reason and obviously the carriers you mentioned have fare better, but you can't tell me AA's swallowing of TWA has been all sweetness and light!
