CityHopper F70 @ Turin 30/12
Death Cruiser Flight Crew
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No, I don't know about this alleged incident and since nothing is on the news, I have to presume all is well. Turin comes up very infrequently on my roster, but when it does, I have a little think about it. Minimum Safe Altitudes of 15,400 (250º-051º) 3,600 (051º-193º) and 12,000 (193º-250º) hmmm...lots of BIG rocks!
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The incident was back in March 2002.
Allegedly the crew failed to de-ice the aircraft. Then lost one engine on takeoff followed by two fan blades from the other. With the remaining engine running rough they then spent 45 minutes in the hold so as to use a mobile phone to ask their operations what to do! Anyone from City Hopper care to comment? Please tell me this is just a vicious rumour as the incompetence and lack of airmanship beggars belief.
Allegedly the crew failed to de-ice the aircraft. Then lost one engine on takeoff followed by two fan blades from the other. With the remaining engine running rough they then spent 45 minutes in the hold so as to use a mobile phone to ask their operations what to do! Anyone from City Hopper care to comment? Please tell me this is just a vicious rumour as the incompetence and lack of airmanship beggars belief.
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Leftarmover and Gearuplight up....I smell a cover up, don't you? Has this been publicised at all as an example for all? I think not! I know the facts as posted by Leftarmover are correct...heard it from a training Captain. Cityhopper pilots have received a written 'post mortem' on the incident. Why not put it in the public domain for all to benefit?
I gather that the low experience overall of the Fokker 70 pilots is a cause for concern by the operators and insurers. There is clearly a lack of common sense demonstrated in the management of this incident
I gather that the low experience overall of the Fokker 70 pilots is a cause for concern by the operators and insurers. There is clearly a lack of common sense demonstrated in the management of this incident
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The arrogance of a Dutchman...?
Has there has been a cover up on the KLM Cityhopper incident at Turin?
Have Cityhopper been sweeping the incident under the carpet? I think so. It is about time that someone from Cityhopper commented on this topic as it is in all our interests that we know all the facts. A 'rumour' is just something which not all the facts are known about.
Whilst it is easy to condemn the crew on their actions, maybe a reply would quell the rumour and any cause for concern would be unfounded.
IMHO, at the very least there was a lack of basic airmanship skills demonstrated by the commander, which leads to a question mark over their training department within Cityhopper.
It is this arrogance that "I can't be wrong because I am a Dutchman" which is extremely worrying in the aviation industry. Remember Tenerife North, the World's worst air accident pre-9/11 caused by the "arrogance of a Dutchman?" It is interesting to note that the Dutch STILL do not accept that Captain Jacob van Zanten was to blame for this terrible crash!
In this industry, if we make a mistake, we generally hold up our hands so that our peers can all benefit from these mistakes. Why can we not benefit from this incident?
Have Cityhopper been sweeping the incident under the carpet? I think so. It is about time that someone from Cityhopper commented on this topic as it is in all our interests that we know all the facts. A 'rumour' is just something which not all the facts are known about.
Whilst it is easy to condemn the crew on their actions, maybe a reply would quell the rumour and any cause for concern would be unfounded.
IMHO, at the very least there was a lack of basic airmanship skills demonstrated by the commander, which leads to a question mark over their training department within Cityhopper.
It is this arrogance that "I can't be wrong because I am a Dutchman" which is extremely worrying in the aviation industry. Remember Tenerife North, the World's worst air accident pre-9/11 caused by the "arrogance of a Dutchman?" It is interesting to note that the Dutch STILL do not accept that Captain Jacob van Zanten was to blame for this terrible crash!
In this industry, if we make a mistake, we generally hold up our hands so that our peers can all benefit from these mistakes. Why can we not benefit from this incident?
Last edited by Danny; 15th Jan 2003 at 01:49.
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What, me do something wrong?
If you dig deep enough you will find that this state of denial is applicable to human beings as individuals, collectively as a company or, as a government.
Airframe manufacturers and certification authorities won't admit to their mistakes why should an airline be different?
Airframe manufacturers and certification authorities won't admit to their mistakes why should an airline be different?
Controversial, moi?
IF the rumour is true and if this was exclusively a Professional Pilots Forum and if this website was secure then I agree that it would be useful to know the facts.
But as every armchair analyst would chip in with their 'opinion' whether they knew what they were talking about or not I can quite understand anybody's reticence to post anything.
Has anybody noticed recently the abundance of posts fishing for facts about even the most trivial incident? Almost like vultures or tabloid journalists.
The comments about arrogant Dutchman, apart from being unfounded, are just an ignorant slur against a generally fine bunch of people.
But as every armchair analyst would chip in with their 'opinion' whether they knew what they were talking about or not I can quite understand anybody's reticence to post anything.
Has anybody noticed recently the abundance of posts fishing for facts about even the most trivial incident? Almost like vultures or tabloid journalists.
The comments about arrogant Dutchman, apart from being unfounded, are just an ignorant slur against a generally fine bunch of people.
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Well, I might not be a professional aviator, but I am Dutch, so I hope that gives me the right to reply 
As an aviation enthusiast (M.Mouse may call me an armchair analyst...for now) and ATC-wannabe (hopefully next year) I read the CVR-transcripts from http://www.airdisaster.com/cvr/tenetr.shtml and I don’t quite agree with leftarmover when he says
I am quite aware of the reputation of the Dutch outside the Netherlands, which is not quite good I fear (in contradiction to what most Dutchies think). Even though sometimes I am ashamed of the somewhat arrogant attitude of some of my fellow countrymen, I would like to comment that MOST of us are not like that . Furthermore, I completely agree with his statement that any kind of arrogance as displayed here, is indeed very worrying. At the risk of stating the obvious: mistakes are made everywhere, but in this business, they can prove to be a little more lethal.
I would like to quote from an article published in a Dutch newspaper, which is not quite exceptional, but it may show you the public view on that horrible crash in 1977. Actually, the article discusses another air crash, but I’ve copied the part where the writer makes a comparison with the 1977 crash.
Oh, sorry, for the people who don't speak dutch, let me translate :
As you can read in the CVR-transcript this is not precisely how it happened; in response to the flight engineer's question, the captain responded with the answer the PanAm had already cleared the runway. But nevertheless, this excerpt from the article is quite accurate I think. So as you may see, I can't quite quite agree with leftarmover .
But back on-topic: Nowhere in the Dutch media (or anywhere else, crash databases, etc) have I been able to find anything regarding this accident. From aviation-safety.net it is to expected this accident is not yet listed, for the most recent accident in Italy in the database is in 2001, but from the Dutch media … ? I wonder where that fellow from Leiden got his information.
As an aviation enthusiast (M.Mouse may call me an armchair analyst...for now
) and ATC-wannabe (hopefully next year) I read the CVR-transcripts from http://www.airdisaster.com/cvr/tenetr.shtml and I don’t quite agree with leftarmover when he says
It is this arrogance that "I can't be wrong because I am a Dutchman" which is extremely worrying in the aviation industry. Remember Tenerife North, the World's worst air accident pre-9/11 caused by the "arrogance of a Dutchman?" It is interesting to note that the Dutch STILL do not accept that Captain Jacob van Zanten was to blame for this terrible crash!
. Furthermore, I completely agree with his statement that any kind of arrogance as displayed here, is indeed very worrying. At the risk of stating the obvious: mistakes are made everywhere, but in this business, they can prove to be a little more lethal.I would like to quote from an article published in a Dutch newspaper, which is not quite exceptional, but it may show you the public view on that horrible crash in 1977. Actually, the article discusses another air crash, but I’ve copied the part where the writer makes a comparison with the 1977 crash.
[...]
Exact dezelfde factor, 'authority in the cockpit', leidde 27 maart 1977 op Tenerife mede tot de ernstigste ramp in de geschiedenis van de luchtvaart met 583 doden. Twee Boeing 747's klapten met grote snelheid op elkaar nadat de KLM gezagvoerder van het ene toestel voor zijn beurt met zijn aanloop was begonnen.
Onderzoekers concludeerden later dat gezagvoerder Jacob Veldhuyzen van Zanten waarschuwingen van zijn co-piloot dat hij in strijd met de regels zijn remmen losgooide, in de wind had geslagen. Hij reageerde evenmin op de vraag van de boordwerktuigkundige of de andere jumbo, een toestel van PanAm, al van de baan was. De gezagvoerder was een vooraanstaande piloot van de KLM en had een lange staat van dienst. De bemanning durfde hem kennelijk niet tegen te spreken, met fatale gevolgen.
Exact dezelfde factor, 'authority in the cockpit', leidde 27 maart 1977 op Tenerife mede tot de ernstigste ramp in de geschiedenis van de luchtvaart met 583 doden. Twee Boeing 747's klapten met grote snelheid op elkaar nadat de KLM gezagvoerder van het ene toestel voor zijn beurt met zijn aanloop was begonnen.
Onderzoekers concludeerden later dat gezagvoerder Jacob Veldhuyzen van Zanten waarschuwingen van zijn co-piloot dat hij in strijd met de regels zijn remmen losgooide, in de wind had geslagen. Hij reageerde evenmin op de vraag van de boordwerktuigkundige of de andere jumbo, een toestel van PanAm, al van de baan was. De gezagvoerder was een vooraanstaande piloot van de KLM en had een lange staat van dienst. De bemanning durfde hem kennelijk niet tegen te spreken, met fatale gevolgen.
:
[...]
Exactly the same factor, ‘authority in the cockpit’, led to the worst disaster in aviation (this article is pre-9/11) history resulting in the death of 583 people. Two Boeing 747s collided with high speed, after the KLM captain had started his take-off roll before he was cleared.
Later on, investigators concluded that captain Jacob Veldhuyzen van Zanten disregarded his co-pilot's warnings that he was in violation of conduct when he started his take-off roll. Nor did he respond to the flight engineer's inquiry whether the other jumbo jet, a PanAm aircraft, had already departed the runway. The captain was a prominent pilot with a long service record. Apparently the crew did not dare question their captain, which led to fatal consequences.
Exactly the same factor, ‘authority in the cockpit’, led to the worst disaster in aviation (this article is pre-9/11) history resulting in the death of 583 people. Two Boeing 747s collided with high speed, after the KLM captain had started his take-off roll before he was cleared.
Later on, investigators concluded that captain Jacob Veldhuyzen van Zanten disregarded his co-pilot's warnings that he was in violation of conduct when he started his take-off roll. Nor did he respond to the flight engineer's inquiry whether the other jumbo jet, a PanAm aircraft, had already departed the runway. The captain was a prominent pilot with a long service record. Apparently the crew did not dare question their captain, which led to fatal consequences.
.But back on-topic: Nowhere in the Dutch media (or anywhere else, crash databases, etc) have I been able to find anything regarding this accident. From aviation-safety.net it is to expected this accident is not yet listed, for the most recent accident in Italy in the database is in 2001, but from the Dutch media … ? I wonder where that fellow from Leiden got his information.
Last edited by Silacoid; 15th Jan 2003 at 00:38.
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Thanks for the reply Silicoid. Interesting to hear your point of view as a Dutchman. My intention with this thread is not to be Xenophobic, merely I want the truth out over a worrying situation.
This 'fellow from Leiden' hears the rumour because I have contact with the company concerned! As a professional aviator, I fear that all the facts in this incident are not available for me to digest and learn from. This is a very self-critical industry which is necessary for the safety of the public.
The reason you have not heard about it, is because it is an incident rather than an accident. The outcome was successful in that the aircraft landed safely. My point about airmanship is why was the aircraft holding over an airfield in a mountainous region on a single engine, which was also damaged and had a high vibration? During this time the Commander was contacting his Technical Pilot to ask what he should do! I know what I would have done.
This 'fellow from Leiden' hears the rumour because I have contact with the company concerned! As a professional aviator, I fear that all the facts in this incident are not available for me to digest and learn from. This is a very self-critical industry which is necessary for the safety of the public.
The reason you have not heard about it, is because it is an incident rather than an accident. The outcome was successful in that the aircraft landed safely. My point about airmanship is why was the aircraft holding over an airfield in a mountainous region on a single engine, which was also damaged and had a high vibration? During this time the Commander was contacting his Technical Pilot to ask what he should do! I know what I would have done.
Mental Floss Prevents Moral Decay
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Apart from the confirmed pilot error at the Tenerife tragedy which generally is known and accepted in the Netherlands and this unconfirmed incident, is there any proof of arrogance of the Dutch? I'm also interested in this incident as I'm regularly travelling to Turin, but judging a nation because of 2 events is kind of....ignorant?
Have seen a bunch of English hooligans around here during soccer matches but that doesn't mean all English are hooligans, are they?
Have seen a bunch of English hooligans around here during soccer matches but that doesn't mean all English are hooligans, are they?
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the arrogance of a Dutchman??!
As this tread is being hijacked from the request of info on a reported incident at Turin to an analysis of Dutch culture I might as well put my 10 cents worth in.
As a Dutch national, not anymore living in The Netherlands, but who visiting regularly over the last 20 years I am probably and in a better position to give an opinion on the Dutch "arrogance"
""I can't be wrong (because I am a Dutchman)"" or rather: ""I must be right (because I am a Dutchman)" is widespread in the Netherlands.
It is the first reaction of many Dutch people to assume the other person is misguided, the other being Dutch or not is not important. What has cultivated that attitude, education or media opinion I do not know, but irritatiing it is.
Even if you do not understand Dutch, listen to the way many discussions are interspersed with question/exclamation mark type words like
"Hè? Nee zeg! Hoe kan dat nou? Dat meen je toch niet? Ga weg! Dat kan toch niet? Nou zeg! Neee!"
It is in the people and the language to be questioning and asserting opinions.
The real irritating thing is that they think that their country's opinions and actions are centerstage in the world.
You've got to be joking.
But the Dutch people are certain of it and can not be convinced otherwise!
Does the name Pim Fortuyn say anthing to anyone?
Do not say "who?", the Dutch will not believe you!
However,
the British total inward looking attitude (like their attitude towards EU),
the Swiss brain bursting obsession for correct and precise behaviour,
the German agression and blinkered view of life,
the French total disregard of anything not French,
the Belgian.......well, I will leave THAT one alone, and let's not forget the North American total lack of imagination,
any countries GENERAL attitude can be critisised.
Often people can not accept that other (nations) are different from themselves and have to have a go at a particular nation or religion.
A phrase used a lot in the past in The Netherlands:
- Gek? Omdat het anders is? - (- Weird? Because it is different? - )
is still practised there and long may it last. They are open and interested in everthing around them, not many cultures are like that.
As a Dutch national, not anymore living in The Netherlands, but who visiting regularly over the last 20 years I am probably and in a better position to give an opinion on the Dutch "arrogance"
""I can't be wrong (because I am a Dutchman)"" or rather: ""I must be right (because I am a Dutchman)" is widespread in the Netherlands.
It is the first reaction of many Dutch people to assume the other person is misguided, the other being Dutch or not is not important. What has cultivated that attitude, education or media opinion I do not know, but irritatiing it is.
Even if you do not understand Dutch, listen to the way many discussions are interspersed with question/exclamation mark type words like
"Hè? Nee zeg! Hoe kan dat nou? Dat meen je toch niet? Ga weg! Dat kan toch niet? Nou zeg! Neee!"
It is in the people and the language to be questioning and asserting opinions.
The real irritating thing is that they think that their country's opinions and actions are centerstage in the world.
You've got to be joking.
But the Dutch people are certain of it and can not be convinced otherwise!
Does the name Pim Fortuyn say anthing to anyone?
Do not say "who?", the Dutch will not believe you!
However,
the British total inward looking attitude (like their attitude towards EU),
the Swiss brain bursting obsession for correct and precise behaviour,
the German agression and blinkered view of life,
the French total disregard of anything not French,
the Belgian.......well, I will leave THAT one alone, and let's not forget the North American total lack of imagination,
any countries GENERAL attitude can be critisised.
Often people can not accept that other (nations) are different from themselves and have to have a go at a particular nation or religion.
A phrase used a lot in the past in The Netherlands:
- Gek? Omdat het anders is? - (- Weird? Because it is different? - )
is still practised there and long may it last. They are open and interested in everthing around them, not many cultures are like that.
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KLC has also a quite vivid safety history with incidents and accidents, perhaps with a view with al the negative media on Crossair with a similar past (althoug LX is much bigger) they prefer to keep these incidents out of the media because it would harm their reputation. (as it did with LX)
About the arrogance of the Dutch, it true ! But this counts mainly for the who will not leave Holland.
About the arrogance of the Dutch, it true ! But this counts mainly for the who will not leave Holland.
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Dutch arrogance?
Well IFTB,
there are some good points in your post. But as an "agressive german with a blinkered view of life" may I defend the Dutch a bit. All my life as a military and later civil aviator I have mostly good memories concerning the Dutch aviation community.
As F 104 fighterpilots, being in real trouble, we could always trust the profs from Dutchmil. Same with civil ATC: the best you could get in Europe(besides Danish ATC). "My" Dutch FE's in 727 or 747 were nice fellows and the same applied to pilots in the cockpit or FA's in the cabin.(with exceptions like anywhere).
Regards
there are some good points in your post. But as an "agressive german with a blinkered view of life" may I defend the Dutch a bit. All my life as a military and later civil aviator I have mostly good memories concerning the Dutch aviation community.
As F 104 fighterpilots, being in real trouble, we could always trust the profs from Dutchmil. Same with civil ATC: the best you could get in Europe(besides Danish ATC). "My" Dutch FE's in 727 or 747 were nice fellows and the same applied to pilots in the cockpit or FA's in the cabin.(with exceptions like anywhere).
Regards
Last edited by Captain104; 15th Jan 2003 at 14:39.
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I am Dutch.
I am a professional aviator.
I am laughing my head off at the stupid remarks of Mr. Leftarmover: "I know what I would have done"
Hahahaha, probably a flightsim jockey of some kind? Know a little about something and condemn a whole nation, no less! Hahahaha
Arrogant eh?
What`s arrogant is telling the whole world you would have done it much much better, without even knowing the facts. And probably without having been in a similar situation. Ever.
Now I`m not employed by Cityhopper in any way, but I am a professional pilot, and this discussion here is far from professional.
I am a professional aviator.
I am laughing my head off at the stupid remarks of Mr. Leftarmover: "I know what I would have done"
Hahahaha, probably a flightsim jockey of some kind? Know a little about something and condemn a whole nation, no less! Hahahaha
Arrogant eh?
What`s arrogant is telling the whole world you would have done it much much better, without even knowing the facts. And probably without having been in a similar situation. Ever.
Now I`m not employed by Cityhopper in any way, but I am a professional pilot, and this discussion here is far from professional.