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Missile fired at Israeli charter aircraft

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Missile fired at Israeli charter aircraft

Old 2nd Dec 2002, 15:39
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Point of order
Its Air Force one if its an air force aircraft, The helo the prez uses is Marine one. If on a civilian registered aircraft, its executive one.
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Old 2nd Dec 2002, 16:51
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The Arkia pilots say the missiles sailed past, and one passenger reported a small explosion over the wing. These two accounts
have fueled rumors that the aircraft was equipped with flares. The Israel Armament Development Authority earlier this year unveiled a commercial anti-missile system called Britening, and Israeli air force commander Maj.-Gen. Dan Halutz last week said countermeasures are available on "select" commercial aircraft. Of Arkia's two Boeing 757-300s, one carried Prime Minister Ariel Sharon to a meeting in Washington, D.C., in May.
El Al has used an anti-missile system since the early 80s, Britening is simply a newer and better system. Israel does not rely on FBI warnings

Pat
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Old 2nd Dec 2002, 22:54
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Heilhaavir : I got a run down on the SA7 from someone who used to shoot them and teach people how to avoid them, I wont tell you why they missed, tho you will probably find it elsewhere on the net. Not countermeasures in this instance.
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Old 3rd Dec 2002, 03:52
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Lightbulb

On a major US network just a few minutes ago, Connie Chung interviewed a retired AF General. The chat is about the missile threat to airliners. I noticed that he described a close-call to some US military jet in Saudi Arabia not long ago. After that, the caption on the screen was "missile fired at US jet", or such. Notice that it did not say military jet, as was the case, whether a transport or tactical type; typical media deception for those who missed the previous short comment.

Heck, we had a close call near a GA aircraft which was climbing out of OKC two nights ago, while the FO was on a visual approach dogleg ("pop-up target" on radar) to runway 35R. With a short descent, 1,000 fpm from 4,000 MSL, as commanded by the Resolution Advisory, TCAS helped to save the day/night: missed by about 700' vertically and about 100-300' laterally.

Folks (GA or otherwise) who fly and forget to call, or decide not to talk to ATC can be as much of a threat as a missile. If I'm stepping on toes, then that's a good thing.
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Old 3rd Dec 2002, 05:11
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RTFI,
I have no doubt your friend has a certain knowledge in his field, but ask him to do some research on the Aero-Gem (a Rafael system) which was developed to protect the IAF helicopters from surface-to-air missiles such as the SA-7 Strella and consists of an electro-optical suite that identifies a missile threat. Once the threat is identified the system monitors the missile and diverts its course using chaff and flares. The Britening system is merely the civilian version of the Rafael system and has been installed on most 4X aircraft. This is old and declassified news and shouldn't be that hard for your friend to verify...
In July of this year an El Al crew reported that a missile had been fired at them after leaving Tel-Aviv for Moscow. Also the Hizbullah is known to have been targeting 4X aircraft landing at an airport near the Lebanese border.
In the late 70s a more primitive system was installed on most 4X aircraft after Khadaffi vowed to down any Israeli aircraft within his reach.
We may discuss this in depth by private email if you wish so as to not overload this board. In the mean time happy holidays to all,

Pat
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Old 3rd Dec 2002, 06:07
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From what I understand if the aircraft's defensive systems had come on line, not only would it have been dropping flares it would have been manoeuvring "energeticaly". These manoeuvres would not have been pilot initiated. This has not been reported hence (from the way i understand it ) no active defensive system.

You cant just chuck flares / chaff out the back and expect the SAM to go away.

If i remember correctly Khadaffi threatened this because the Isreali's shot down a libyan air 727, if you want to know where all this began it was (I stand to be corrected) the first missile shoot down of a civilian airliner.
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Old 3rd Dec 2002, 08:11
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RogerTangoFoxtrotIndigo -
...the first missile shoot down of a civilian airliner
If I recall correctly from the article I read about that one, many moons ago, it was an Israeli fighter that shot it down with an AAM, not a SAM.

Edit - found this:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...05/wtel405.xml

Feb 21, 1973: A Libyan Arab Airlines Boeing 727 was shot down by Israeli F-4 Phantom jets after it strayed into Israeli-occupied Sinai. The plane crashed into the desert, killing 106 of the 113 people on board.

Sept 3, 1978: An Air Rhodesia Vickers Viscount 782 with 56 people on board was struck by a SAM-7 missile fired by rebels of the Zimbabwe People's Revolutionary Army (Zipra) shortly after take-off from Kariba. The plane crash-landed. Ten of the 18 survivors were later killed by the rebels.
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Old 3rd Dec 2002, 08:45
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I will indeed correct you RTFI, and that will be my last post on the subject since we are getting off topic

On Feb 21st 1973, Capt. Bourges (I went to school with his son Laurent) was in command of the ill-fated 72. Radio communications between the 72 and Israeli controllers were never established, the Israli jets fired their guns (NOT MISSILES) at the Libyan airliner to minimize the dammage and force him to land. Capt. Bourges lost control and crashed. (In no way am I excusing or diminishing this tragedy, just correcting your "facts"). Israel was at fault and compensated the families after which Kadhaffi blamed Egypt for letting the 72 travel so far off course and blamed Sadat for attempting to provoke tensions between Israel and Libya. Kadhaffi's threat to down an El Al aircraft came several years later when Israel moved into Southern Lebanon in March of 1978.

Now to come back to the special maneuvering of the Arkia jet, it would not be the case with the Britening system, especially with a civilian jet that has a much lower heat signature. The system works fine with the IAF choppers which usually move at a slower pace than the 75 involved

In any case you are entitled to your opinion. May I suggest you look the system up (Aero-Gem, Rafael or Britening, all the same), you should find some good info on the net, no technical or in depth data of course, I'm sure you understand why ... LOL

Again, that was my last post on the subject. I hope the other users on this board will accept my appologies for going a bit off topic.

May you all fly safe,

Pat
(Ktanim aval hazakim)
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Old 4th Dec 2002, 04:48
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RTFI
I doubt that the aircraft would be manuevering much. Not with a full boat at low airspeed.
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Old 9th Dec 2002, 07:09
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Appropo - looks as though something along spotter area closure is happening...

verbatim from Avweb 9 Dec 2002:

AIRPORT OBSERVATION PARK CLOSED: Reacting to last week's shoulder-
launched missle attack on an airliner in Kenya, airports large and small have closed observation areas and other public places near their runways. The action was taken after terrorists tried to down an Arkia airliner in Kenya using what may have been former Soviet shoulder-fired Strella anti-aircraft missles. Whether a little park in Fort Lauderdale resembles the launch site in Kenya or not, airport officails aren't taking any chances. According to a report in the South Florida Sun- Sentinel, the park would "overflow with aviation buffs, photographers
and people who enjoy watching airplanes while eating lunch." An
overreaction? Regular park visitors think so but airport officials
aren't quite ready to admit that. "We haven't determined when or if we'll reopen it," airport spokesman Jim Reynolds said.
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Old 9th Dec 2002, 07:33
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So they close the only place a terrorist wouldn't use because a) it's full of people and b) it has precisely the disadvantage that caused this most recent attempt to fail.

"Do something - anything!" syndrome in full swing.
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Old 9th Dec 2002, 10:30
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Thumbs down Stupidity

Damien B I agree

Just a while ago I came into the conclusion that by the time people reach the age of thirty they are dumber than the day they where born.

You are right on about the spotters. Them hanging around airports actually increases security as those locations would be hard to use by terrorists. Now it seems that security has worked for the advantage of the terrorists.

That "Do something - anything!" syndrome is really in full swing.

Take note that most of the people making these decisions are older than 30.
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Old 10th Dec 2002, 18:21
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Can someone remind me... Wasn't there a documentay on the BBC not many weeks back about Saudi Arabia? I recall they claimed that the reason the Saudi government wasn't harder on terrorists was their fear of being shot down while flying about in their private jets.
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Old 12th Dec 2002, 04:56
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Let's hope that a few "stray" Scud missiles, arriving in whichever Yemen port, are never equipped with active radar guidance and beige camouflage. Defensive only, eh?
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Old 12th Dec 2002, 13:08
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I don't think even a radar-guided Scud would have much hope of hitting passing aeroplanes....actually, best leave it as it is and point it at an airport, much more worrying.

And how the hell is a big ballistic missile "defensive" anyway?
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Old 12th Dec 2002, 14:07
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inside infos

I can confirm that the Missile launched were of SA7 type (I flew back the Mossad guys with two of the launchers) .
Interesting is the fact that the Arkia incident would have been a lot worse if not for a last minute Runway change (Pilot decision from a Regional Air 737 , that the Arkia decided to follow) at Mombasa airport .
The rest of those guys luck was probably due to lack of training from the terrorists .
A little Thanks to all our kenyan pilots that Rushed to the scene for the evacuations that followed the Hotel Attack .Good Job there.
Unnerving is that uncomfirmed report that a light plane could have flown from Mogadishio to Help Bombing the Hotel .Anybody Knows anything about that ???
The day was sad for all of us in East africa , particularly as one of our colleague lost his life the Very same after his Let 410 was damaged during a forced landing in the Maasai Mara , following an Engine Failure .None of the Passengers were badly injured .
We carry on like all of you .Let us hope for better years in the skies and less fanatics in the world .
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Old 15th Dec 2002, 03:36
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SteamChicken: Did the Yemeni govt not tell the media that the missiles were for defensive purposes? At least it sounded that way while watching the news, or maybe read it somewhere in the paper. Please correct me if they stated otherwise.
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Old 15th Dec 2002, 03:59
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Nice to see Yemen can afford Scuds for "defensive" purposes at around $4mil a pop. I shall ask my MP to lobby for a cut-off in humanitarian aid to this state. They obviously don't need it. North Korea can take a flying leap as well.
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Old 15th Dec 2002, 11:33
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Having been in MBA at the time of attack (port, not airport), security was poor to non-existant for about three hours after the hotel incident, then increased somewhat.
Kenya now has a very big problem. For a country that derives a very large portion of its revenue from tourism will certainly see a huge decline in tourist arrivals. The deputy port captain mentioned to me that, in his opinion, the Kenian government has only paid lip service to the terrorist threat up to now, and he hoped that other governments will now wake up and take stock of the situation, and act accordingly.
Europe especially has been very slow to realise that they just might be next on the hit list.
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Old 16th Dec 2002, 04:47
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Thumbs up

411A: Excellent points you made, as is often the case.

In my opinion it is such a shame that so many countries are not bold enough to confront Iraq's brutal "leader", as was the case with another quite brutal leader during the Munich talks in '38.

Unity can help prevent war when dealing with such bullys: isn't that one of the ultimate goals? What is the main problem, too many profits from business or concern that Saddam's feelings will be hurt?
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