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Missile fired at Israeli charter aircraft

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Missile fired at Israeli charter aircraft

Old 28th Nov 2002, 18:15
  #21 (permalink)  
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What do they want? They want you to be dead, unless of course you are a Muslim.

They are indescriminate, amoral killers and believe me, you wouldn't want to pay the price they are asking. They don't want to negotiate, they want to kill.

You pander to terrorists, all you get is more terror. The Taliban would have us all back in the Stone Age if they could, and that includes no aircraft.

Hunt them all down.
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Old 28th Nov 2002, 18:21
  #22 (permalink)  
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I hate to digress in a political direction on this forum, but you cant be serious. What do they want ? To eradicate our (the west or all non muslims) way of life. There is nothing we can do which will satisfy them and make them stop, thats the whole point. These are not rational acts designed to elicit a course of action or result or remedy some injustice. They seek to destroy us, period. Even if there was something that they wanted which we could deliver, is that (Appeasement) really the way to go ? Ask Mr Chamberlin.
If some mad man with a cause has put a bullet in your childrens brain would your first reaction be to think " gee, I wonder what he wants, how can I placate him ?) If so, you are a disturbed person. Al Qaeda, et al could'nt care less about Palestinians etc, if so why they or any other Muslim group not take action againts the greatest injustice and slaughter of Muslims in recent history (Bosnia) ? It was only the bombing of the Serbs by the hated Americans which put an end to it. Think again my friend.
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Old 28th Nov 2002, 18:34
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Old 28th Nov 2002, 18:46
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USAedin....... if we are to be rational about your kill em all rant I'd have to point out that the west have been dropping 1000lb bombs on and shooting "non pink" people's children for years, maybe thats "why they hate us"........ however I visited vietnam last year and a friendlier bunch you could not have meet.

But getting back to aviation if i was planning flight paths into or out of LHR, and I only use that as an example because I know it well and because the IRA lobbed a few mortas onto the field a few years back, nervous would not cover it.

Are their any viable paths to Heathrow that do not fly over either central london or Aldermaston? If not the nimby's may just get their way.
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Old 28th Nov 2002, 19:05
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Last word on this from me cause its non aviation, but perhaps you could remind me just what injustice the AUS gvt inflicted upon muslims which caused so many of your countrymen to be slaughtered in Bali ? And when did I say bomb them all. My only point is there is not logic to a terrorists actions and no way to placate or prevent their actions by adjusting ones foreign policy etc. You missed the point as most liberals do.
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Old 28th Nov 2002, 19:05
  #26 (permalink)  
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One possible reason for the miss is an apparent runway change due to calm winds. A/c took off to the north instead of to the south where these characters would have been right under the flight path, a possible quick fire towards an accelerating target getting smaller??
Luck smiled on the aircraft, shame about the hotel!
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Old 28th Nov 2002, 19:35
  #27 (permalink)  
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Well said Avman.

Few Cloudy

If you think about it, even a little bit, the
spotters at the end of the runway, on the
perimeter, on the carparks, in the terminal
or wherever are probably the best chance
thats left.
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Old 28th Nov 2002, 20:09
  #28 (permalink)  
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Unhappy They were SA -7 Grails

Just seen the photo's of the discarded launcher - clearly an SA-7 Strella 2 (NATO Code "Grail" ).
This is a man portable, shoulder launched heat seeking missile with a range of 3.6km. It was produced in very large numbers for the Soviet bloc and it is not suprising that terrorists have got hold of some.
Even more interesting is that two were fired - somebody had done their homework.
I'm worried that only operator incompetence saved this from being a kill..........
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Old 28th Nov 2002, 20:30
  #29 (permalink)  

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Yes very worrying. Reports are that the shooters were 2 km from the runway and a pax estimated they were only at 100 ft when he saw the trails.

(Adjust for media and pax perceptions).

"The SA-7 was the first generation of Soviet man portable surface-to-air missiles. Although classed as "fire and forget" types, the missiles were easily overcome by solar heat and, when used in hilly terrain, by heat from the ground.

The SA-7 seeker is fitted with a filter to reduce the effectiveness of decoying flares and to block IR emissions. The system consists of the missile (9K32 & 9K32M), a reloadable gripstock (9P54 & 9P54M), and a thermal battery (9B17). An identification friend or foe (IFF) system can be fitted to the operators helmet. Further, a
supplementary early warning system consisting of a passive RF antenna and headphones can be used to provide early cue about the approach and rough direction of an enemy aircraft. Although the SA-7 is limited in range, speed, and altitude, it forces enemy pilots to fly above minimum radar limitations which results in detection and vulnerability to regimental and divisional air defense systems."
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Old 28th Nov 2002, 20:40
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Thumbs down

USAedin and RTFI. It aint "no meat on Fridays" that will help. Anybody with half a brain can figure out, if you watch other than CNN, that all they want is quite simply that Americans get out of the Palestinian Israel territory conflict. Its got nothing to do with they want to kill us all, USAedin you should be ashamed of your ignorance. Australians unfortunatly got bombed in Bali because of their public support of the US..
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Old 28th Nov 2002, 21:16
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Ever heard of Hizb Ut-Tahrir?
They're one of the worlds larger Muslim movements.

Here's a link to their website: Hizb Ut-Tahrir

Here's a quote from the website:

The Aim of Hizb ut-Tahrir

Its aim is to resume the Islamic way of life and to convey the Islamic da’wah to the world. This objective means bringing the Muslims back to living an Islamic way of life in Dar al-Islam and in an Islamic society such that all of life’s affairs in society are administered according to the Shari’ah rules, and the viewpoint in it is the halal and the haram under the shade of the Islamic State, which is the Khilafah State. ......

It also strives to bring her [Islam] back to her previous might and glory such that she wrests the reins of initiative away from other states and nations, and returns to her rightful place as the first state in the world, as she was in the past, when she governs the world according to the laws of Islam.

It also aims to bring back the Islamic guidance for mankind and to lead the Ummah into a struggle with Kufr, its systems and its thoughts so that Islam encapsulates the world.
So now you know what they want.

Israel is just the start of it.
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Old 28th Nov 2002, 21:17
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I think it's bigger than that SB--Israel is known as the Little Satan--but it's the US who is the big Satan. Starting with the fact that US troops are stationed in the holy land of Saudi Arabia and following through to the US' cherished values of freedom and liberty. . . .including freedom to live a debauched life according to Wahabi Islam.
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Old 28th Nov 2002, 21:25
  #33 (permalink)  
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Actually, Selandia Baru , it is you who is displaying gross ignorance.

The extreme muslim position against the West (principally the "Great Satan", America), has less to do with the Palestinian issue than it does with the whole history of the region, going back to World War 2, the Shah, etc., the division of the Middle East by Western powers.

If you had even bothered to watch CNN, you would have seen a procession of Muslim clerics vowing death to all Americans and their supporters. In the UK, this message seems to be preached regularly in mosques.

It's a lot more complicated than just Israel- but even if it wasn't, if the US stopped supporting Israel, that country (and every single one of its inhabitants) would cease to exist. There would be no mercy whatsoever.

RTFIs rant is similarly simplistic. There is virtually no correlation between Vietnam and the current Middle East conflict.

What most folk don't seem to realise, is that it ain't going to get better, given the dedication of the terrorists (fighting a "holy war") to killing anyone who is connected with America-9/11 being a good example of their indescriminate killing (how many muslims do you think died in the WTC? My guess is, a lot).
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Old 28th Nov 2002, 22:28
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The political discussion can go to Jet Blast. Please keep this thread open to the facts of the attack.
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Old 29th Nov 2002, 00:30
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This recent missile attack is a clear indication that this sort of appalling warfare is going to continue and it will remain lose lose for both sides. My ignorance is not only a result of reading News papers and watching CNN. I am a western, Christian, european who has, in the past, lived and worked (aviation business) with palestinians in their (or what is left of it) country. A foriegn policy change in the west is what is needed. I am neither sympathetic to Middle Eastern People nor American people I just wish that the problems could be sorted out.

Last edited by Selandia Baru; 29th Nov 2002 at 00:49.
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Old 29th Nov 2002, 01:01
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SA-7s claimed a number of a/c at Kabul and it seems there's lots more out there in the wrong hands.

It will likely take some time for the bad guys to figure out how to carry out an effective attack and beat counter-measures -- Cattletruck lets not be giving out hints and explanations to help them do it better next time 'round.

If Danny will indulge this political comment, ensuring that Palestinians have a fair shake at dignity and economic opportunity might just get the temperature down and take the wind out of the sails of bin Laden etc.

Unless/until that happens we'd better get really sharp and proactive at staying at least one step ahead of this nasty.
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Old 29th Nov 2002, 03:19
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lets not be giving out hints and explanations to help them do it better next time 'round

Quite. Unfortunately the media accounts contain enough to indicate why they missed. I don't watch CNN but I wouldn't be surprised if they haven't already had 'experts' on explaining the workings of a Grail in detail. Probably on Al-Jazeera too
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Old 29th Nov 2002, 04:38
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These missles are designed to strike tactical aircraft.
IF its going fast it most likely has an After burner, great big heat bloom. Even if it isn't in burner, it won't be much of a bypass engine, so again great big heat bloom....

If its going slow, its probably a helicopter and going very slow.

A 757 has high bypass turbofans and doesn't put out a lot of heat as a result. So unless you are EXACTLY at 6 oclock and looking directly up the tail pipe of the engine at the turbine wheels, you won't have that great a heat signiture to lock onto.

That applies to older missles. Newer ones would have much less problems.

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Old 29th Nov 2002, 05:39
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Unfortunately, I think it would be a safe bet to say that CNN will, over the next few days, give us chapter and verse, with vivid computer graphics and their resident military "expert's" opinions included, on how missileers got it wrong and what they should have done to get it right, (which, cattletruck, any military pilot with even a passing training in SAMs and how to avoidthem could figure out in about two minutes - but please, Wino and anyone else out there, let's not advertise it here.)

What's even more unfortunate is that you can be sure the next ASU (or whatever al Qaeda call their ASUs), will be far better briefed.

And in closing - let's not blame 'the Muslims'. The vast majority of Muslims will be just as horrified at what these clowns are up to as we are. These people are just the modern day equivalent of the the Baader Meinhof Gang and the Red Army Faction. They're using religion today as their smokescreen just as BM and the RAF used Communism as theirs. If you want to make the argument a simplistic one, (which it isn't), you can call it penis envy. Put very simply, they're nothing more than than little men with little dicks who, just as in the 70's with the last crop of anti-Western terrorists, look a bit glamorous to some misguided individuals. In this case, most of the misled are young (and not so young) Muslims.

But let's not forget how many 'educated' Westerners sympathised with the BM and RAF backin the 70's.
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Old 29th Nov 2002, 05:57
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Thank God they survived. Don't forget the previous supply of missiles in Yugoslavia. One downed an Italian, twin-engine turboprop (Aeritalia G-222?) with fairly small engines. Those folks also fired one at the large US Marine helo as it flew a downed F-16 pilot back towards the coast. Let's don't forget the civilian C-130s somewhere in Africa, and several planes shot down somewhere in the Pacific Rim by rebels, whose crews often tried dangerous short-cuts in routing (read about an Antonov crew there from the Ukraine). This was covered in either "Airways" or "Airliner" magazine several months ago.

Good point up there by someone about how much dangerous info is often revealed by the media. The media also described 'geographic profiling', regarding the murderers in Virginia/Maryland. I had seen it only once before that terror streak began.

People who train their children to be martyrs and who also live to murder civilians can make no claims to be moral, humane nor religious. Without conflicts, warlords lose their jobs and followers, and control over others' lives. This is true all over this miserable world, no matter what type of self-righteousness and superiority is promoted.
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