Maintenance Standards
Cunning Artificer
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Monsieur Le Pen is correct when he says that the AWNs and other current regulations give us less freedom to manouver. Recent changes in regulations have been deliberately designed to reduce the individual LAE's authority. Mighty Thor seems to say that we engineering staff are seeking a nanny, but that isn't really the case. We started by discussing the current state of engineering. Why do aircraft depart with so many deferred (officially or otherwise) defects? Why do LAEs sign out such 'heaps' and 'old bangers'? What happened to standards? Why are maintenance errors on the increase, when all other accident causes are on the decline? Occasionally LAEs put their foot down - a certain Acelindic heap of corroded aluminium scrap, masquerading as a B757 comes to mind - but there is genuine cause for concern, and while Scudhunter tries to provoke someone into shopping a specific airline or two, its really an industry wide problem. We discuss it here because there isn't anywhere else. Perhaps if CHIRP really worked and anyone took any notice of what we say, action would already be taken to ensure that sufficient quantities of qualified staff are available to do the job.
That perhaps is the root of the problem. Numbers. Management works in numbers, modern business is after all, just a numbers game. Airline X has so many aeroplanes and only Y number of engineering staff, so we can manage with the same number per aircraft too. Chop! Chop! - out go the redundancy notices, down go the remaining heads, and scribble, scribble go the pens in the Tech Logs. Got to keep paying the mortgage haven't we?
I don't see any solution, but that's no reason for not discussing the problem.
**************************
Through difficulties to the cinema
That perhaps is the root of the problem. Numbers. Management works in numbers, modern business is after all, just a numbers game. Airline X has so many aeroplanes and only Y number of engineering staff, so we can manage with the same number per aircraft too. Chop! Chop! - out go the redundancy notices, down go the remaining heads, and scribble, scribble go the pens in the Tech Logs. Got to keep paying the mortgage haven't we?
I don't see any solution, but that's no reason for not discussing the problem.
**************************
Through difficulties to the cinema
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Why are maintenance errors on the increase, when all other accident causes are on the decline?
Why so many ADD's - mainly due to lack of spares and ground time, why? Commercial pressure? If it's not flying it's not earning money, there is no need to have 000,000's of $ worth of spares lying around stores when they can be got in x days/weeks/months. It's all about commercial pressure and that's the bottom line I'm afraid.
Did you know that if you worked on an Air Jamaica a/c and you had worked more than 15 hrs that day you are liable to be fined and without sufficient rest before that days shift you will be fined.
If only more airlines/companies had more backbone to stand upto share holders/beancounters etc the better we would all be.
I am fortunate enough to work for an airline that HAS restrictions on the amount of hours I can work in a day and how much rest I must have, and will back me up when I say that I can not work iaw AWN 47.
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Hello,
Have to say that I agree with Blacksheep, Le Pen, Spanners and even Bus's one liner about complacency.
I've been thinking about Chirp and one of the reasons it will never work for us.
I guess that I have been lucky in some respects, I have only ever once been in a position where I felt the need to Chirp. BUT my anonanimty could have never been guaranteed. As a result I didn't submit it.
There must me many of us either working alone or on a shift where you are the only Licenced guy. Where, if any sort of investigation were carried out, the finger could only be pointed at you.
I guess that they would say that the company would not be able to do anything to you. But, we all know they can.
Finally, in answer to Aerodyne. I do not believe that standards have dropped. How could they? Would any one of us, or, for that matter any Pilot, depart or accept an aircraft where the standard of Maintainance is less than it should be? I'm not talking about ADD's here. (After all, the manufacturer has deemed that these defcts are allowable). But the actual standard of the work carried out.
Sorry, I think I'm starting to ramble on. Its very late.
Hope you can make sense of this.
PLM
Have to say that I agree with Blacksheep, Le Pen, Spanners and even Bus's one liner about complacency.
I've been thinking about Chirp and one of the reasons it will never work for us.
I guess that I have been lucky in some respects, I have only ever once been in a position where I felt the need to Chirp. BUT my anonanimty could have never been guaranteed. As a result I didn't submit it.
There must me many of us either working alone or on a shift where you are the only Licenced guy. Where, if any sort of investigation were carried out, the finger could only be pointed at you.
I guess that they would say that the company would not be able to do anything to you. But, we all know they can.
Finally, in answer to Aerodyne. I do not believe that standards have dropped. How could they? Would any one of us, or, for that matter any Pilot, depart or accept an aircraft where the standard of Maintainance is less than it should be? I'm not talking about ADD's here. (After all, the manufacturer has deemed that these defcts are allowable). But the actual standard of the work carried out.
Sorry, I think I'm starting to ramble on. Its very late.
Hope you can make sense of this.
PLM
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Guys,
Having read this thread with interest I feel it is time to add my 2p worth.
In many ways engineers are their own worst enemies. Just read through the threads again and look at how you view yourselves.
If it were not for the fact that I am reading this on a computer I would think I was reading something from a Dickensian era! This is the 21st century! A firm cannot just sack you nowadays, you can take then to court! If they put you in a demeaning job or reduce your terms and conditions to the extent that you want to quit, then that can be consrued as constructive dissmissal, and you can take them to court! If you are with a union or the ALAE then you won't even have to pay the lawyer!
Get a grip and get a life. If you are not happy with it then don't sign it!
If the company can find someone who will then that is not your problem (and if, heaven forbid, something goes wrong, you will still have your licence and your job. unlike the jobsworth who penned it)
We as Aircraft engineers are in a unique position, we are among the few professions which can be prosecuted for not doing our job properly. If the postman does not deliver your letter, that's it. No mail. If a car mechanic forgets to put oil in a car, the engine might blow up but he won't find himself in court for manslaughter. If however we fail to carry out a mandated check IAW the relevant proceedures or forget to correctly lock a componant, or whatever we could end up in front of the beak!
That's what you have to remember when pen is put to paper.
I agree with pond life (FLS boy?) if the defect is outside the MEL then the crew won't take it.
If we all start to have a little pride in what we do the others will recognise it and our standing in the aviation community will only rise.
I for one enjoy what I do. I don't want to be a pilot, it doesn't interest me. I enjoy the challenge of getting a sick a/c out on a tight slot, safe in the knowledge that it is safe and 300ish people are still going to enjoy their holiday. I enjoy travelling the world and getting paid to do it, telling a pessimistic driver that I have fixed it and he can go (so he has to cancel the dinner he had arranged 'cos he thought it wasn't flying - actually happened once
)
I know that my pay is not the best but it's better than it used to be, and some day I may even be paid what I am worth!
Sorry starting to waffle on a bit, but I think you get my drift.
Cheers,
edited 'cos I can't spell
Having read this thread with interest I feel it is time to add my 2p worth.
In many ways engineers are their own worst enemies. Just read through the threads again and look at how you view yourselves.
If it were not for the fact that I am reading this on a computer I would think I was reading something from a Dickensian era! This is the 21st century! A firm cannot just sack you nowadays, you can take then to court! If they put you in a demeaning job or reduce your terms and conditions to the extent that you want to quit, then that can be consrued as constructive dissmissal, and you can take them to court! If you are with a union or the ALAE then you won't even have to pay the lawyer!
Get a grip and get a life. If you are not happy with it then don't sign it!
If the company can find someone who will then that is not your problem (and if, heaven forbid, something goes wrong, you will still have your licence and your job. unlike the jobsworth who penned it)
We as Aircraft engineers are in a unique position, we are among the few professions which can be prosecuted for not doing our job properly. If the postman does not deliver your letter, that's it. No mail. If a car mechanic forgets to put oil in a car, the engine might blow up but he won't find himself in court for manslaughter. If however we fail to carry out a mandated check IAW the relevant proceedures or forget to correctly lock a componant, or whatever we could end up in front of the beak!
That's what you have to remember when pen is put to paper.
I agree with pond life (FLS boy?) if the defect is outside the MEL then the crew won't take it.
If we all start to have a little pride in what we do the others will recognise it and our standing in the aviation community will only rise.
I for one enjoy what I do. I don't want to be a pilot, it doesn't interest me. I enjoy the challenge of getting a sick a/c out on a tight slot, safe in the knowledge that it is safe and 300ish people are still going to enjoy their holiday. I enjoy travelling the world and getting paid to do it, telling a pessimistic driver that I have fixed it and he can go (so he has to cancel the dinner he had arranged 'cos he thought it wasn't flying - actually happened once
)I know that my pay is not the best but it's better than it used to be, and some day I may even be paid what I am worth!
Sorry starting to waffle on a bit, but I think you get my drift.
Cheers,
edited 'cos I can't spell
Cunning Artificer
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Would your faith in the process of law still be in place if your name appeared at the top of a list of people to be included in the next redundancy package, mono? It isn't actual threat we are talking about, it is implied threat, the same psychological effect that magnifies the threat of terrorism and thus makes it so effective.
As to your question about evidence spannersatx, read this human factors presentation by Shell Aviation on the Royal Aeronautical Society's Human Factors Group website - especially the second and third slides. Follow up with your own searches on maintenance related aircraft accidents and hull losses and you will soon answer your own question. The commercial accident rate declined steadily until around 1978/79 when it levelled off. Although CFIT remains at the top, causes other than maintenance errors continue to decline, the overall level being kept constant by increased maintenance errors.
I do admit the possibility that this may be due to improved methods in accident investigation, where some incidents that would previously have been assigned as pilot error, are now identified as being due to maintenance errors. Discuss.
**************************
Through difficulties to the cinema
As to your question about evidence spannersatx, read this human factors presentation by Shell Aviation on the Royal Aeronautical Society's Human Factors Group website - especially the second and third slides. Follow up with your own searches on maintenance related aircraft accidents and hull losses and you will soon answer your own question. The commercial accident rate declined steadily until around 1978/79 when it levelled off. Although CFIT remains at the top, causes other than maintenance errors continue to decline, the overall level being kept constant by increased maintenance errors.
I do admit the possibility that this may be due to improved methods in accident investigation, where some incidents that would previously have been assigned as pilot error, are now identified as being due to maintenance errors. Discuss.
**************************
Through difficulties to the cinema
Last edited by Blacksheep; 14th Nov 2002 at 04:20.
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Blacksheep,
At the last round of redundancies I applied for voluntary redundancy! (it was rejected) so does that answer your question?
For me at least, in the last 2 months I must have had at least 20 calls asking me if I am available for work, both contract and permy. OK so I am in the lucky position of not having any kids and having an understanding partner, so to move around for work is not a problem for me, whereas may be for some of my fellow engineers.
Still I am fairly happy with my company at the moment so I guess I will be around for a while yet
Cheers.
At the last round of redundancies I applied for voluntary redundancy! (it was rejected) so does that answer your question?
For me at least, in the last 2 months I must have had at least 20 calls asking me if I am available for work, both contract and permy. OK so I am in the lucky position of not having any kids and having an understanding partner, so to move around for work is not a problem for me, whereas may be for some of my fellow engineers.
Still I am fairly happy with my company at the moment so I guess I will be around for a while yet
Cheers.
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Hiya,
Amazed this thread is still active.
Just picked this up on the E & T forum..
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...alaska160.html
What can I say?
LP
Amazed this thread is still active.
Just picked this up on the E & T forum..
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...alaska160.html
What can I say?
LP
Very interesting, but it could never happen here......could it?
I remember an incident, not too long ago, where I was asked to clear a deferred defect. The necessary work needed to clear this defect could not be done due to lack of spares. Unfotunately the limitation imposed by the MEL expired the following morning so the aircraft would be u/s.
I refused to sign the log. An argument then ensued between myself and my shift manager. "The part would be available soon, we can re raise the defect tomorrow night and it will carry for another 10 days" was his argument. Again I refused. it then became apparent that the only reason that he wanted the defect clearing was because then he would meet his bonus target, (number of deferred defects cleared), for the month and receive a hefty sum of cash!!
The strong arm tactics continued but I stood firm.
Result, I was overlooked for further training for several years, which became a bit of a problem last year when redundancies were announced and a points system based on the number and type of a/c licences held meant that I was out of a job!
OK it's not a very similar case but the result was the same-unemployment.
I remember an incident, not too long ago, where I was asked to clear a deferred defect. The necessary work needed to clear this defect could not be done due to lack of spares. Unfotunately the limitation imposed by the MEL expired the following morning so the aircraft would be u/s.
I refused to sign the log. An argument then ensued between myself and my shift manager. "The part would be available soon, we can re raise the defect tomorrow night and it will carry for another 10 days" was his argument. Again I refused. it then became apparent that the only reason that he wanted the defect clearing was because then he would meet his bonus target, (number of deferred defects cleared), for the month and receive a hefty sum of cash!!
The strong arm tactics continued but I stood firm.
Result, I was overlooked for further training for several years, which became a bit of a problem last year when redundancies were announced and a points system based on the number and type of a/c licences held meant that I was out of a job!
OK it's not a very similar case but the result was the same-unemployment.
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Le Pen, if you do a search at that website you may still be able to find articles about the authorities turning a blind eye on irregularities in that operation. Current practice is for the airlines to police themselves.
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Sorry can't provide the link to the Times. However it was based on this months' AAIB bulletin.
Hope this link works:
http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/group...1.hcsp#P19_420
Hope this link works:
http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/group...1.hcsp#P19_420
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I work for a regional as an LMC part of our job is to ensure that engineers do not work beyond what is resonable in aog situations in europe .
All engineers should be encouraged to take proper rest as tired engineers are not good engineers
All engineers should be encouraged to take proper rest as tired engineers are not good engineers
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Sadly Maint errors at BA are on the up and more importantly so are those classified as serious, there is an internal investigation on the go at the moment trying to establish causes ( root causes )
For my 10 pence worth its poor moral and managers only interested in performance,i could add things such as being treated like S*** regardless of qualifications and experience but thats well known so not worth mentioning.
For my 10 pence worth its poor moral and managers only interested in performance,i could add things such as being treated like S*** regardless of qualifications and experience but thats well known so not worth mentioning.
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Interesting that this topic rears its head after a story in the papers - perhaps all maintenance errors should be in the public domain? it might encourage Management to take the issue a bit more seriously.
I see that BA Quality are getting very stressed over the increasing number of incidents and have now started meeting with the Engineers to get their views - ah well, only 15 years late.
Until management (I can only speak for BA) recognise that there is a systemic and structural problem of their making I foresee more incidents occuring and very possibly the next time we have a 777 trying to do a 'Concorde' lives may well be lost.
I see that BA Quality are getting very stressed over the increasing number of incidents and have now started meeting with the Engineers to get their views - ah well, only 15 years late.
Until management (I can only speak for BA) recognise that there is a systemic and structural problem of their making I foresee more incidents occuring and very possibly the next time we have a 777 trying to do a 'Concorde' lives may well be lost.
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Story appeared in papers a good week or so after AAIB has posted its letter, not naming BA as per (stupid) policy. As a wake-up call to the industry it doesn't really cut it. AAIB didn't publicise it widely or release it to the press probably for fear of pissing off BA.
When tens of millions are slashed from airline costs what makes anybody think mx is going to be at the same standard as it was before?
When tens of millions are slashed from airline costs what makes anybody think mx is going to be at the same standard as it was before?
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Lifes little lessons.
This same management attitude at Alaska Airlines killed a lot of innocent people.
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Mgmt can shout and bawl all they like.
A licensed engineer got where he is through alot of hard work, training and (I really hope?) the belief that he has what it takes to say "NO" when he knows it's not right. It goes with the role, yes?
I'd rather tell the wife I've been sacked/suspended for not "penning off" a u/s aircraft, as suggested I do so by my supervisor, than spend the rest of my life behind bars living with the guilt that my actions left a smoking hole somewhere and possibly many lifes lost!!
If I'm not happy, won't sign for it.
Here's something to think about - saw an advert in McDonalds a while ago for trainee managers starting on £18'000, there's plenty really good aircraft technicians earning way less than this out there !!! Or how about qualified gas fitters earning £30'000 or more, well there's Licensed engineers signing aircraft off every day earning the same, or less in some cases!!
Do you think that both these jobs carry the same responsibility as aircraft maintenance? I know my opinion.
I believe standards are dropping and I also believe the regulatory bodies won't do a thing about it until there's an accident to justify it. You only need to look back at accidents and read the reports to realise failures or errors had been there all along but nothing was done til one falls out of the sky.
Don't be pushed into something you are not happy about, so they send you home and some one else pen's it off!!
You won't be the one behind bars, jobless maybe, but concience clear and guilt free.
A licensed engineer got where he is through alot of hard work, training and (I really hope?) the belief that he has what it takes to say "NO" when he knows it's not right. It goes with the role, yes?
I'd rather tell the wife I've been sacked/suspended for not "penning off" a u/s aircraft, as suggested I do so by my supervisor, than spend the rest of my life behind bars living with the guilt that my actions left a smoking hole somewhere and possibly many lifes lost!!
If I'm not happy, won't sign for it.
Here's something to think about - saw an advert in McDonalds a while ago for trainee managers starting on £18'000, there's plenty really good aircraft technicians earning way less than this out there !!! Or how about qualified gas fitters earning £30'000 or more, well there's Licensed engineers signing aircraft off every day earning the same, or less in some cases!!
Do you think that both these jobs carry the same responsibility as aircraft maintenance? I know my opinion.
I believe standards are dropping and I also believe the regulatory bodies won't do a thing about it until there's an accident to justify it. You only need to look back at accidents and read the reports to realise failures or errors had been there all along but nothing was done til one falls out of the sky.
Don't be pushed into something you are not happy about, so they send you home and some one else pen's it off!!
You won't be the one behind bars, jobless maybe, but concience clear and guilt free.