KAL's next crash, just around the corner?
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Interesting remarks, high level comments. If someone understands PPRuNe not only as bingo entertainment, that's what I like to read and participate in! Compliments gentlemen.. .. .My hobbies concerning profession as IP were facts and personal experience.. .Talking about instructing asian cockpits, I posted before, there are "cultural aspects to be considered." . .. .This does not exclude all those talented fine asian pilots I had the honour to train. But it. .also includes those cockpit aspirants I had to. .cope with, who had a hell of a lot problems to. .just approach an attitude I could accept bearing CRM in mind. Not more, not less.. .. .Dear GrangeGuzzler,. .I'm the gentleman you refer to. Obviously, Viastra didn't need assistance. I respected his views and enjoyed his posts. If he trained asian cockpits too, nice. I just guessed.. .. .Your other arguments are not very convincing for me. You joined pprune in August 2001?. .In this tread you adressed "spiral diver and others" by posting "as has been pointed out on this forum for many times, the so called Delta report is NOT.". .On this rainy day here, I was digging deep into past forums until August 2001. The only one who questioned the Delta audit in two posts where YOU!!!. .In the tread "FAA DOWNGRADES KOREAN CARRIER SAFETY RATING"(18th Aug) you warmly defended KAL management and more strange to me, did the same in the thread "KOREAN PILOTS IN JAIL"(19th Aug) in a situation, our Korean fellows could have used support in their strike. Remember "KAL AND ASIANA"(Sept/01)?. .. .You state, that an ordinary pilot from Delta(without any background) just observed some flights of KAL, wrote something up and passed that on to higher floors.. .Excuse me Sir, I think this is ridiculous: Even if you substract 90 % of this audit, the remaining 10 % are scaring for me. Forget the armrests and 3 other small points.. .Just the opposite, reading the summery of this "deaf and blindfolded Delta audit fool", my nose and all senses smell exactly what he means and wants us to know. Anyone who trained not only in pprune treads but also in reality senses what I refer to.. .. .Why all this digging, discussion and engagement?. .It aims for the ideal cockpit, in which CRM is not only a training item to cope with but assuring safer operation for all. 90 % of the First Officers I had the pleasure to fly with hopefully will do a better job concerning CRM, that I expect and it makes me happy. . .. .Thank you SPAM IN A CAM for posting.. .MATEOSIX, flying Mexicana, do you think I could try to change my dachshound against the stewardess on LH seat on approach? At least he is. .motivated if there is a sausage in the cockpit and will do his best! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> . .Regards. . . . <small>[ 08 March 2002, 14:20: Message edited by: Captain104 ]</small>
Join Date: Nov 2001
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Rongotai: Basis IMHO lies in company culture. SOPs are a good start to change it, and management providing a platform in which the comments of an FO and other people concerned are valued is the next step. . .. .And the "I know I am right-attitude" can be dangerous, that's what this is all about. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />
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Agreed again, Pegasus. .. .SOP's are necessary, but not sufficient - and that is often the mistake that is made.. .. .Company culture is pre-eminent - but it is more difficult and involves more skillful management where SOP's and/or company culture are in tension with aspects of national culture.. .. .Also - globally accepted 'best practice', such as CRM, must always be introduced in ways that address the specifics of company and national culture.
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Capt 104. You miss my point. The so called Delta report available on this forum is NOT! My purpose in pointing this out is that by attaching the Delta stamp of approval, users are giving this personal view far more weight than it desrves.. .The report to which you refer does make many valid points and it would be a fool that denies there are many problems afoot in the subject airline. However it is as I suggested, very much a personal view of a gentleman ill equipped to undertake the role to which he was appointed and who does not even observe procedures whose ommision causes him to criticise others. He is not a Delta pilot. He is a KAL pilot of non Korean ethnic origin, who has worked for KAL sine 1997. He had no previous experience in training and checking and has been overlooked for such positions since his infamous release of the "Delta Report". I will hasten to add that he is a person with the purest of motives, but is seen by many to be a tad misguided.. .. .WRT to my time of registration. Not relevant. For various reasons many of us have had many nom de plume's over the years.. .. .In the meantime I suggest you and others listen to people like Viastra who are actually working hard to fix the problems that do exist. They (and there are several) are doing a magnificant job in turning a basket case into a viable and vibrant entity. They are at the coalface and daily striving for change. Not a small part of that change requires the goodwill of the Korean pilots. Ill informed and out of date (by several years)comments from clowns like ironbutt and others do not make the task of these gentlemen any easier. Give them a break and give them a little space to work their way through these matters. Any coward can stand on the side and throw petrol (or avtur) on the fire. It takes someone with guts and determination to take the bull by the horns and actually address the problems that do exist.. .. .Keep safe. .. .GG
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Viastra,. .. .I commend your valiant effort to try to enlighten us with your so-called exposed accident rate by the western world. But if you are going to put facts on the board, then at least be fair about it. Sure if we combined all the accdents over the years over the western world, then surely, KAL's accident rate would be miniscule by comparison.. .. .However you failed to evaluate the "per capita" numerical value into the equation. Look at the link below.. .. .<a href="http://www.airdisaster.com/statistics/" target="_blank">http://www.airdisaster.com/statistics/</a>. .. .This will give you stats on the number of fatalities of an air carrier. With all the major US carriers combined, it does comes close to KAL's statistics, but AA, CO, DL, NW, & UA combined have 72 million flights vs. KAL's 1.3 million. . .. .So your "lawyer" style of revealing half the truth to your benefit is somewhat skewed.. .. .However, KAL's problems seem to be magified due to the high exposure of expats. CAL recently took off a taxiway, hardly a feat of competence when there were 3 pilots in the deck. Certainly there are problems that needs fixing, but to what avail ? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" /> . .. .But in the meantime, it is sure fun to have a pint/yard and talk about it in the bar. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />
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Points are made that the FO should not keep silent in the face of a captain's error, if the safety of the airplane and occupants is in doubt.. .. .What about the (foreign but not necessarily) pilots who work for the airline(s) concerned? Should they not also speak up, or will the next passenger deaths be partly their fault?
Eight Gun Fighter
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This is getting muddled.. .. .I don't fly on KAL.. .I strongly advise my family members to not fly Korean.. .I don't need to tell the folks I work with.. .. .It will take a couple of years of exemplary operational performance to change my mind, at the least.. .. .Risk Management and your life.
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Yellow dust:. .. .Only a few years ago in accident reports the factor "management" was used for the first time. I would not point a finger at pilots 'who should know better', because they are not from such a Korean culture. As long as they speak up on their own flights, they are doing their jobs. And I guess, they want to keep that job, so it will be hard to speak up within the company. . .. .Guess stating that the management and also the law are more responsible than a single pilot, would make sense?
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Capitan 104, don't understand why your grin... Next time you fly to Mexico with Lufthansa and you connect you WILL fly with Mexicana, although you'll have a lufthansa ticekt. This is sad for STAR ALLIANCE.. .. ."... but what should go wrong?". .. .Pendejos!
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Mateo Six,. .what you posted(FA's at the controls for a complete flightsector) seemed to me like a story from another star. Should your statement reflect reality my grin would freeze immediately.. .. .Regards Sir
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Did anyone mention last weeks little mistake of KAL taking a wide berth when turning onto 05R at NZAA, not staying on the lead on markings?. .Fortune will have it, that the WIP barrier was down. If it had not been down, there was a very good chance of contact with the wingtip!!. .Interesting times lay ahead when NZAA 05L/23R comes into service?!
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When considering why KAL is more prone to these sorts of incident it is worth considering that in an 80 country survey South Korea and the United States were at exact opposite ends of the table in responses to this statement:. .. ." It is more important to do things in your own way, even if things go wrong as a result.". .. .USA - 25% of respondents agreed.. .South Korea - 80% of respondents agreed.
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The Auckland landing incident was caused by the Korean F/o compensating for an 8kt crosswind by kicking off the drift and putting the incorrect aileron into wind so rolling the aircraft in the flare, drifting off centreline and scraping a pod, and damaging the raised runway edge lights. The skipper was extremely experienced on the 747, but it happened too quick he said. Because until you get to the flare normally everything seems okay when the F/o is flying, but it's the last 50ft where it all goes t..s up. Often there's no flare, or there's no looking out the window for perspective. Unbelievably some will try to flare on the flight director. These guys then become skippers themselves!
