It's good to talk - PLEASE !!!
Thread Starter
It's good to talk - PLEASE !!!
As the first anniversary approaches, people and organisations are understandably getting nervous.
At least twice this morning aircraft have been out of touch with French ATC for extended periods - one from Bordeaux to BARLU, the other for a lesser distance. Both have then found a French Air Force Mirage keeping them company. It may create some amazing photo opportunities, and give the military some useful practice, but it is not a very professional example of airmanship!
Both crews arrived on London frequencies a little chastened by their experience, but it could have been so much worse.
My worst fear is of an unrelated emergency occuring, such as a de-pressurisation, which requires a rapid descent. If the airliner happens to be in the vicinity of a "sensitive" location, normal emergency procedures may appear to have a totally different interpretation when viewed from the cockpit of an armed intercepter. The military pilot may have just seconds to decide on a course of action that could have consequences too frightening to contemplate.....
Please use your CRM to ensure that you are in contact with ATC at ALL times.
At least twice this morning aircraft have been out of touch with French ATC for extended periods - one from Bordeaux to BARLU, the other for a lesser distance. Both have then found a French Air Force Mirage keeping them company. It may create some amazing photo opportunities, and give the military some useful practice, but it is not a very professional example of airmanship!
Both crews arrived on London frequencies a little chastened by their experience, but it could have been so much worse.
My worst fear is of an unrelated emergency occuring, such as a de-pressurisation, which requires a rapid descent. If the airliner happens to be in the vicinity of a "sensitive" location, normal emergency procedures may appear to have a totally different interpretation when viewed from the cockpit of an armed intercepter. The military pilot may have just seconds to decide on a course of action that could have consequences too frightening to contemplate.....
Please use your CRM to ensure that you are in contact with ATC at ALL times.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: LATCC
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It must be good practice to monitor the frequency and if it;s quiet, call ATC to see if you are in contact with them.
If not, advice D and D on 121.5 - saves scrambling the fighters.
If not, advice D and D on 121.5 - saves scrambling the fighters.
Mistrust in Management
I understand your concern. <Please use your CRM to ensure that you are in contact with ATC at ALL times.>>
We try, and sometimes we fail. However sometimes we fail because there is constant yacking on the frequency, and usually it is in 'FRENCH'.
There are times when I cannot get a word in for ages. I have no idea when to make my call as I don't know who has last spoken to who.
So when it comes to 'CRM', perhaps French ATC have something to learn.
ENGLISH IS THE LANGUAGE. A n F/O died at CDG partly at least because ATC were talking in FRENCH!!
When will you folk start to realise that there is CRM in our flight decks and that there should be a CRM attitude within ATC.
I apolgise if I seem a little harse, but I feel it needs to be said.
Best wishes to all of you in ATC who have looked after me for 'donkeys years'.
We try, and sometimes we fail. However sometimes we fail because there is constant yacking on the frequency, and usually it is in 'FRENCH'.
There are times when I cannot get a word in for ages. I have no idea when to make my call as I don't know who has last spoken to who.
So when it comes to 'CRM', perhaps French ATC have something to learn.
ENGLISH IS THE LANGUAGE. A n F/O died at CDG partly at least because ATC were talking in FRENCH!!
When will you folk start to realise that there is CRM in our flight decks and that there should be a CRM attitude within ATC.
I apolgise if I seem a little harse, but I feel it needs to be said.
Best wishes to all of you in ATC who have looked after me for 'donkeys years'.
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: East Midlands
Posts: 723
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hmmmmmmmmmmm
The topic has a valid point.
We know ATC make a point of inviting aircrew to see them. Hell they even arrange open days for just that reason.
Some q's if you don't mind.
1/ ATC, what is the take up rate by airline bods?
2/ Is it high enough to gain an 'air to ground' understanding?
3/ Do you guys in ATC get regular J/seat rides to see the other side? (Yes it is still poss in the current situ, we just need to vet you)
4/ As exeng mentions CRM, how many of you guys (and girls) are INVITED by airlines to attend CRM courses?(A good CRM cuts both ways, and you should be able to learn from us, and in return, educate us.
Just a groundie looking in, trying to help the likes of Numpo keep the old BP down....................................Perhaps if the answers to the Q's aren't what the should be we can collectively do something about it.
Fly safe, and Numpo and co keep an eye on 'em.
BORED
We know ATC make a point of inviting aircrew to see them. Hell they even arrange open days for just that reason.
Some q's if you don't mind.
1/ ATC, what is the take up rate by airline bods?
2/ Is it high enough to gain an 'air to ground' understanding?
3/ Do you guys in ATC get regular J/seat rides to see the other side? (Yes it is still poss in the current situ, we just need to vet you)
4/ As exeng mentions CRM, how many of you guys (and girls) are INVITED by airlines to attend CRM courses?(A good CRM cuts both ways, and you should be able to learn from us, and in return, educate us.
Just a groundie looking in, trying to help the likes of Numpo keep the old BP down....................................Perhaps if the answers to the Q's aren't what the should be we can collectively do something about it.
Fly safe, and Numpo and co keep an eye on 'em.
BORED
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: land of the long BLUE cloud
Posts: 402
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree with EXENG........
The amount of french spoken on frequency is enough to make a sane pilot wind the volume down. Minutes on-end of french language, amount to little more than static to me. Then when they call me - Ive shut off to it all.
As for 121.5 - I miss more genuine calls on box 1 because of the cr@p on that frequency that shouldnt be!
The amount of french spoken on frequency is enough to make a sane pilot wind the volume down. Minutes on-end of french language, amount to little more than static to me. Then when they call me - Ive shut off to it all.
As for 121.5 - I miss more genuine calls on box 1 because of the cr@p on that frequency that shouldnt be!
Moderator
Join Date: Jul 1997
Location: Europe
Posts: 3,228
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Seriph
Probably running at more than a couple PER day at the moment. Unauthorised abscence from the frequency is now a mandatory MOR offence by ATC, as well as pilots involved running the risk of some unexpected formation flying.
Usually turns out to be finger trouble, or selecting an incorrect frequency. We're all human after all and all make mistakes so it's going to happen. Bone up on your interception procedures folks, and make sure you don't go too fast for the Tornados !!!
Probably running at more than a couple PER day at the moment. Unauthorised abscence from the frequency is now a mandatory MOR offence by ATC, as well as pilots involved running the risk of some unexpected formation flying.
Usually turns out to be finger trouble, or selecting an incorrect frequency. We're all human after all and all make mistakes so it's going to happen. Bone up on your interception procedures folks, and make sure you don't go too fast for the Tornados !!!
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Alloway,Ayrshire,Scotland
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Very interesting topic and one that concerns me.I very rarely post on pprune as I am tired of outspoken comments from (presumably) pimply youths expounding like Concorde captains.I work for a company that has recently started multiple rotations through CDG,as well as that well known ATC blackspot,NCE plus many overflights of la Belle France(no prizes for guessing).I am absolutely horrified at the potential and actual loss of situational awareness caused by rapid-fire French speaking on French ATC,the prize example of this is CDG.Now, I really like France,the wine,food etc.,and I am really sorry that English is the international r/t language,but this is the fact.I can personally get by in French and understand a lot of the ATC communication,but my one man campaign to reduce the level of French r/t is to say absolutely nothing in French.Not even bonjour,au revoir,bonne journee,directe Barlu merci,bon soir etc.Fellow ppruners who traverse French airspace may like to follow suit.121.5 on box 2 is just good airmanship.Merci.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: one dot low as usual
Age: 66
Posts: 536
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree with the comments about French ATC, no other country uses their native language to the same degree in the air. The worst thing is losing situational awareness. I don't speak much French but am very concerned when you hear the controller informing other aircraft of your relative position but not giving reciprocal information.
ICAO should enforce the international language of aviation to help keep us all in the big picture.
ICAO should enforce the international language of aviation to help keep us all in the big picture.
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 1,294
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The uptake of flight crew visits to ATC from my experience is very low, when you do visit it is also for a short time.
Regarding fam flights ,since the 20th Aug there have been further restrictions placed by the CAA with some airlines now not allowing ATCO's on the jump seat.
We need more interaction to get things running as smoothly as we can between us, but those not at the sharpend don't seem to care or maybe just do not understand .
I think the French debate will just run and run ,maybe its a ploy to get you all to learn the language.
Regarding fam flights ,since the 20th Aug there have been further restrictions placed by the CAA with some airlines now not allowing ATCO's on the jump seat.
We need more interaction to get things running as smoothly as we can between us, but those not at the sharpend don't seem to care or maybe just do not understand .
I think the French debate will just run and run ,maybe its a ploy to get you all to learn the language.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: formally Alamo battleground, now the crocodile with palm trees!
Posts: 960
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree with the comments about French ATC, no other country uses their native language to the same degree in the air.
Have you ever flown in Central & South America?
You almost need to know Spanish, because certain ATC controllers' English proficiency is surprisingly low. Airliners and IFR traffic conduct their ATC in their native language = Spanish.
As for the statement that the French language on ATC caused the accident at CDG I would be careful. Runway incursions happen very often (one needs to look @ LAX). Speaking and reading back English does not mean understanding it. If you are proficient in another language other than your native language you'll understand.
I am absolutely horrified at the potential and actual loss of situational awareness caused by rapid-fire French speaking on French ATC
) aren't any less "rapid-fire spoken", especially in IMC.Regarding languages other than English permitted to be used for ATC, I believe that they are French, Spanish, Russian and Chinese. I mentioned this before in another thread, but I haven't found the time to find the reference yet (please stand by).
Last edited by Squawk7777; 11th Sep 2002 at 20:36.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: U.K.
Posts: 805
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A sort of ex colleague of mine gave his life a year or so ago due to the insistence of the French to speak their own language at CDG (remember the Streamline Shed). I havent been to that airfield for ages. Am I right in assuming that nothing has changed there?
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: formally Alamo battleground, now the crocodile with palm trees!
Posts: 960
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
... tried that when flying in Mexican airspace. The controllors immediately caught my intention and advised me that:
1. they had not enough time
2. national traffic is not required to know the English language
3. they would point out any potential conflicting traffic to me.
(at the end you do not want to p!ss off a controller, esp. if you are in foreign airspace)
back to the accident @ CDG. French being used on R/T is one of the contributing factors. Here's a summary of the accident report:
PROBABLE CAUSE: The accident was caused:
Firstly, by the LOC controller's erroneous perception of the position of the aircraft, this being reinforced by the context and the working methods, which led him to clear the Shorts to line up,
Secondly, by the inadequacy of systematic verification procedures in ATC which made it impossible for the error to be corrected,
Finally, by the Shorts' crew not dispelling any doubts they had as to the position of the 'number one' aircraft before entering the runway.
Contributory factors include:
Light pollution in the area of runway 27, which made a direct view difficult for the LOC controller.
Difficulty for the LOC controller in accessing radar information: the ASTRE image was difficult to read and the AVISO image not displayed at his control position.
The use of two languages for radio communications, which meant that the Shorts crew were not conscious that the MD 83 was going to take off.
The angle between access taxiway 16 and the runway which made it impossible for the Shorts crew to perform a visual check before entering the runway.
The lack of co-ordination between the SOL and LOC controllers when managing the Shorts, exacerbated by the presence of a third party whose role was not defined.
A feedback system which was recent and still underdeveloped.
I am not trying to play down the accident, but a similar accident occured in Italy where a Scandinavian MD-80 crashed into a D-registered Citation. Both were using English R/T, there was bad vis., gnd radar inop etc. I think posting that the accident @ CDG is entirely to blame because of dual languages usage is a bit much ... 
1. they had not enough time
2. national traffic is not required to know the English language
3. they would point out any potential conflicting traffic to me.
(at the end you do not want to p!ss off a controller, esp. if you are in foreign airspace)
back to the accident @ CDG. French being used on R/T is one of the contributing factors. Here's a summary of the accident report:
PROBABLE CAUSE: The accident was caused:
Firstly, by the LOC controller's erroneous perception of the position of the aircraft, this being reinforced by the context and the working methods, which led him to clear the Shorts to line up,
Secondly, by the inadequacy of systematic verification procedures in ATC which made it impossible for the error to be corrected,
Finally, by the Shorts' crew not dispelling any doubts they had as to the position of the 'number one' aircraft before entering the runway.
Contributory factors include:
Light pollution in the area of runway 27, which made a direct view difficult for the LOC controller.
Difficulty for the LOC controller in accessing radar information: the ASTRE image was difficult to read and the AVISO image not displayed at his control position.
The use of two languages for radio communications, which meant that the Shorts crew were not conscious that the MD 83 was going to take off.
The angle between access taxiway 16 and the runway which made it impossible for the Shorts crew to perform a visual check before entering the runway.
The lack of co-ordination between the SOL and LOC controllers when managing the Shorts, exacerbated by the presence of a third party whose role was not defined.
A feedback system which was recent and still underdeveloped.
due to the insistence of the French to speak their own language at CDG
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Alloway,Ayrshire,Scotland
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have operated into all the U.S. airfields quoted in my previous long-haul and jet-lagged existence.There is no obvious comparison in that the American controllers just speak fast,but at least it is in English.And I don't necessarily agree that they do talk that fast.Going back to France,can anyone clarify whether they are legally obliged to speak English on the radio or is that just myth?Nevertheless, CDG and NCE are IMHO chaotic and border-line dangerous airfields,the dual language problem being a significant factor.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: formally Alamo battleground, now the crocodile with palm trees!
Posts: 960
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here's an intermediate answer:
ICAO Annex 10, Vol. II, Chapter 5 lines out the phraseology of R/T, but it doesn't specify English as the language to be used.
A.I.P. Canada 5.2 says that both English and French can be used. (CAR 602.133 134 and 135) It also says that once a language has been determined, the pilot should refrain from changing language [...]
Let's take a look at Mexico [taken out of the Jepps]:
ICAO rules of the air and air traffic services
2A.1.1 (5.2.1.1) Language to be used
2A.1.1.1 Recomendation - In general, the air-ground radiotelephony radiocomunications should be conducted in the language normally used by the station on the ground.
on the other side, on 2A.1.1.2 it recommends that for universal use of aeronautical radiocomunications the english language should be used or available upon request from the aircraft station
notice should not must.
confusing ...
more to follow
ICAO Annex 10, Vol. II, Chapter 5 lines out the phraseology of R/T, but it doesn't specify English as the language to be used.
A.I.P. Canada 5.2 says that both English and French can be used. (CAR 602.133 134 and 135) It also says that once a language has been determined, the pilot should refrain from changing language [...]
Let's take a look at Mexico [taken out of the Jepps]:
ICAO rules of the air and air traffic services
2A.1.1 (5.2.1.1) Language to be used
2A.1.1.1 Recomendation - In general, the air-ground radiotelephony radiocomunications should be conducted in the language normally used by the station on the ground.
on the other side, on 2A.1.1.2 it recommends that for universal use of aeronautical radiocomunications the english language should be used or available upon request from the aircraft station
notice should not must.
confusing ...
more to follow