Uk Level Capping
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Also, though it may greatly irritate the accountants to say this, and it is always wise to operate in as fuel-efficient a manner as you know how, the variability in fuel-burn per sector is probably of the order of 100-300kg. In other words, the extra fuel burnt may not be noticed in the "noise" of the quantity of fuel burn measured.
Some aircraft fuel gauges only claim to be accurate to within 3% of full load - on a B737 that was about 120 kg, I think.
And also, it will probably only make a difference of a minute or two on a domestic sector. Winds permitting, it might even make you faster.
Some aircraft fuel gauges only claim to be accurate to within 3% of full load - on a B737 that was about 120 kg, I think.
And also, it will probably only make a difference of a minute or two on a domestic sector. Winds permitting, it might even make you faster.
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But
Bigears does make a very valid point.
On ONE side, who gives ATC the right to level cap. It is not only on UK and other domestics. 2Hr sectors from Iberia. Brussels issue a list of UK carriers, by FLT No who will file low. Who gives ATC the right to make commercial calls with our Airlines. It does mount up.
(I openly admit, that, prior to a we think about it, that was my viewpoint).
The OTHER side. BA Ground Handling Manual. B737, Hard and soft costs per delay, GBP200.00 per min. Factor that by .5 to take away incentive to Ground Staff. Factor it to your own fleet size.
Ask what the Cateres get fined per min for each delay.
This is a real 'never win' debate. ATC will do more than you know behind the scenes, I know, I take the calls.
Shoot. Routings and costings is a wee bag of mine. I will argue the toss with the ATCer that says I cannot do that. It is not very often.
PS, never a word from ATC when I level cap under incomming T/Atlantics thru MAN and mix jets with T/Props, and never an ASR.
Keep it up you upturned dusbin watchers.
Bored
On ONE side, who gives ATC the right to level cap. It is not only on UK and other domestics. 2Hr sectors from Iberia. Brussels issue a list of UK carriers, by FLT No who will file low. Who gives ATC the right to make commercial calls with our Airlines. It does mount up.
(I openly admit, that, prior to a we think about it, that was my viewpoint).
The OTHER side. BA Ground Handling Manual. B737, Hard and soft costs per delay, GBP200.00 per min. Factor that by .5 to take away incentive to Ground Staff. Factor it to your own fleet size.
Ask what the Cateres get fined per min for each delay.
This is a real 'never win' debate. ATC will do more than you know behind the scenes, I know, I take the calls.
Shoot. Routings and costings is a wee bag of mine. I will argue the toss with the ATCer that says I cannot do that. It is not very often.
PS, never a word from ATC when I level cap under incomming T/Atlantics thru MAN and mix jets with T/Props, and never an ASR.
Keep it up you upturned dusbin watchers.
Bored
Thread Starter
boredcounter, you wrote "On ONE side, who gives ATC the right to level cap"
Hmmmmmmmmmmm, that does seem to be a little cockeyed
"Level Capping" as such comes about, at the moment anyway, by the new enroute centre (Swanwick) not having enough staff (which was known by NATS Managementr BEFORE the centre opened - at least FIVE YEARS before I might add !!!) to man the centre properly.
Therefore airlines opt to fly at an initially lower level to get an "on time" departure - or if not "on time" at least to avoid excessive delays.
Ergo, "level capping".
And please note, we "dustbinmen" (
) will always do our UTMOST to initiate a climb as soon as possible.
Hmmmmmmmmmmm, that does seem to be a little cockeyed
"Level Capping" as such comes about, at the moment anyway, by the new enroute centre (Swanwick) not having enough staff (which was known by NATS Managementr BEFORE the centre opened - at least FIVE YEARS before I might add !!!) to man the centre properly.
Therefore airlines opt to fly at an initially lower level to get an "on time" departure - or if not "on time" at least to avoid excessive delays.
Ergo, "level capping".
And please note, we "dustbinmen" (
) will always do our UTMOST to initiate a climb as soon as possible.
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<...refuse higher if offered...>.
Well, certainly nothing wrong with that but then the extra cash spent for RVSM is then a waste of time.
All this "superior" equipment and procedures and it still cannot be made to operate properly.
Well, certainly nothing wrong with that but then the extra cash spent for RVSM is then a waste of time.
All this "superior" equipment and procedures and it still cannot be made to operate properly.
Boxcar
I can understand the company's thinking process in asking you to refuse offers of a higher level. They may have been taken to task in the past by ATC units further down the route who have been overloaded by additional aircraft apparently at non-approved levels.
However, I think a better way of dealing with the situation is, if offered a higher level, to reply that you have been level-capped and adding which sector or airspace you are planned to stay beneath (if indeed you know). This allows ATC to check if the relevant sectors can actually accept an additional aircraft. Remember, flow control is a relatively blunt instrument, and there may be tactical opportunities to improve levels and/or routes whilst you are actually en-route. Then, if the offer of a higher level is confirmed, you may take up the offer with a clear conscience and no risk of unwanted repercussions!!!
NN
I can understand the company's thinking process in asking you to refuse offers of a higher level. They may have been taken to task in the past by ATC units further down the route who have been overloaded by additional aircraft apparently at non-approved levels.
However, I think a better way of dealing with the situation is, if offered a higher level, to reply that you have been level-capped and adding which sector or airspace you are planned to stay beneath (if indeed you know). This allows ATC to check if the relevant sectors can actually accept an additional aircraft. Remember, flow control is a relatively blunt instrument, and there may be tactical opportunities to improve levels and/or routes whilst you are actually en-route. Then, if the offer of a higher level is confirmed, you may take up the offer with a clear conscience and no risk of unwanted repercussions!!!
NN
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411A, instead of making mine's better than yours one liner statements why don't you elaborate? Speaking from personal experience of flying widebody jets into the US over several years I can always expect to be told to descend long before the ideal TOD point. More often than not I can expect to fly the last several hundered miles well below any optimum level which is extremely inefficient. Could that be something to do with the state of US ATC?
I hear this criticism from many US pilots as well so please don't try your usual derogatory put down of all matters of aviation that are non US orientated. For once just try and explain your point, not forgetting that Europe is a continent made up of many different countries and not one country under a single federal government. The UK in particular has some of the most densely used airspace due to its geography and the controllers, the people at the pointy end do one of the best jobs of any ATC I have had to experience. Considering that the current problems being discussed are due to poor management and planning, NOT anything to do with the actual controllers, you may want to try using a bit more grammar when making your ascerbic comments. Readers who may not be familiar with your 'style' would then at least be better able to decide whether you were having a go at the controllers or the management.
I hear this criticism from many US pilots as well so please don't try your usual derogatory put down of all matters of aviation that are non US orientated. For once just try and explain your point, not forgetting that Europe is a continent made up of many different countries and not one country under a single federal government. The UK in particular has some of the most densely used airspace due to its geography and the controllers, the people at the pointy end do one of the best jobs of any ATC I have had to experience. Considering that the current problems being discussed are due to poor management and planning, NOT anything to do with the actual controllers, you may want to try using a bit more grammar when making your ascerbic comments. Readers who may not be familiar with your 'style' would then at least be better able to decide whether you were having a go at the controllers or the management.
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Nothing at ALL wrong with the controllers Danny, but as you noted, the ATC system in Europe is made up of many countries, with their own agendas and priorities. For the system to work as a WHOLE, the system NEEDS to be modified.
Eurocontrol?
Now of course getting the UK, France, Germany etc to all work together is a bit of a stretch, but IF airlines are MADE to invest in RVSM/8.33 (read expensive) equipment, and then the ATC units are understaffed/underfunded, seems to me to be a COMPLETE waste of time.
As for descending early in the USA, yes would agree is sometimes fuel inefficient, but OTOH, have had the same problem in Europe many times. Not unique to the USA certainly.
Japan for example has very dense traffic, and have been asked/instructed many times for an early descent.
Sometimes you just have to go with the flow.
Eurocontrol?
Now of course getting the UK, France, Germany etc to all work together is a bit of a stretch, but IF airlines are MADE to invest in RVSM/8.33 (read expensive) equipment, and then the ATC units are understaffed/underfunded, seems to me to be a COMPLETE waste of time.
As for descending early in the USA, yes would agree is sometimes fuel inefficient, but OTOH, have had the same problem in Europe many times. Not unique to the USA certainly.
Japan for example has very dense traffic, and have been asked/instructed many times for an early descent.
Sometimes you just have to go with the flow.
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411a
Your two wheeled velocipeid is being delivered.
AFAIK, RVSM is in use in Europe above FL290
At least over here, we don't fly VFR through [thru] CTRs etc at FLxxx
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy
Your two wheeled velocipeid is being delivered.
AFAIK, RVSM is in use in Europe above FL290
At least over here, we don't fly VFR through [thru] CTRs etc at FLxxx
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy
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Yes, chiglet I know....
Airline managements in Europe just seem to roll over and play dead, because they are forced into a system that CANNOT accomodate them. Spend, spend, spend...and STILL the system breaks down due to POOR planning by the bureaucrats who could not find their a@@ with both hands, even if the lights were on.
IS there NO solution?
Airline managements in Europe just seem to roll over and play dead, because they are forced into a system that CANNOT accomodate them. Spend, spend, spend...and STILL the system breaks down due to POOR planning by the bureaucrats who could not find their a@@ with both hands, even if the lights were on.
IS there NO solution?
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411A:
Apart from the relatively few DOMESTIC flights which are level-capped and therefore don't make it into RVSM airspace, have you stopped to think how many more DOMESTIC and INTERNATIONAL flights we are able to fit in at high level because we are using RVSM? I suggest that you, in one of your trips here from that side of the Pond, might feel the benefit when trying to return Stateside and RVSM means your delay is 20 mins instead of 1 hour. That is because of increased capacity brought about by RVSM.
As others have said: Your neck is getting a little extended. Try retracting it!
Apart from the relatively few DOMESTIC flights which are level-capped and therefore don't make it into RVSM airspace, have you stopped to think how many more DOMESTIC and INTERNATIONAL flights we are able to fit in at high level because we are using RVSM? I suggest that you, in one of your trips here from that side of the Pond, might feel the benefit when trying to return Stateside and RVSM means your delay is 20 mins instead of 1 hour. That is because of increased capacity brought about by RVSM.
As others have said: Your neck is getting a little extended. Try retracting it!
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eyeinthesky,
Yes, additional levels available due to RVSM, yes still problems with the shiney new equipment on the ground...and all this is wasted because even IF the new shiny ground equipment worked as designed, there are still not enough controllers available, trained and on duty to make all that much difference with delays.
Simple question, have delays increased or decreased over the last two years or so?
If the delays have increased as reported here by others, why?
Could it be that those who are actually responsible for ATC planning in the UK/Europe are asleep at the switch?
Yes, additional levels available due to RVSM, yes still problems with the shiney new equipment on the ground...and all this is wasted because even IF the new shiny ground equipment worked as designed, there are still not enough controllers available, trained and on duty to make all that much difference with delays.
Simple question, have delays increased or decreased over the last two years or so?
If the delays have increased as reported here by others, why?
Could it be that those who are actually responsible for ATC planning in the UK/Europe are asleep at the switch?
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411A
I wonder if you are one of those that overfly the UK through the London Upper Sector that need several calls to get any response, and then frequently don't know where you're going and what level you can take!!!
Oh and ...................
THE SHINY EQUIPMENT THAT DOESN'T WORK IS AMERICAN!!!
I wonder if you are one of those that overfly the UK through the London Upper Sector that need several calls to get any response, and then frequently don't know where you're going and what level you can take!!!
Oh and ...................
THE SHINY EQUIPMENT THAT DOESN'T WORK IS AMERICAN!!!
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Ahh-40612
No, generally destined for Europe/UK from SE Asia/mid East area, sometimes finding that nothing much has changed in the last few years.
You say the shiney new US equipment doesn't work...or you have not received proper training in its use...?
No, generally destined for Europe/UK from SE Asia/mid East area, sometimes finding that nothing much has changed in the last few years.
You say the shiney new US equipment doesn't work...or you have not received proper training in its use...?
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Nogbad
Like I say, '(I openly admit, that, prior to a we think about it, that was my viewpoint)'. On the whole, and it is a 99.9% whole, UK ATC are superb. As a local chap doing my best, I sure try and see your point about manning levels. Shoot I see it every working day.
I can see you guys are making the best out of a bad lot.
'PS, never a word from ATC when I level cap under incomming T/Atlantics thru MAN and mix jets with T/Props, and never an ASR.'
Guess why I phone Lon FMP prior to sticking one thru at low level out via VEULE. MAN accept it, and your lower guy is on the verge of premeture baldness as it is. As for level capping, guess what. I see lists of UK bound flights from Iberia held down. I see UK bound flights restricted most by SRS. All costing UK carriers money. At a GUESS, have a word with your French mates. File under a 20NM restriction on the continent, you get a YOYO restriction for the priveledge. At least you guys in the UK are honest. Never knew the French or Italians had so many Milexs.
Keep up the good work UK, we based carrier do thank you for it.
I can see you guys are making the best out of a bad lot.
'PS, never a word from ATC when I level cap under incomming T/Atlantics thru MAN and mix jets with T/Props, and never an ASR.'
Guess why I phone Lon FMP prior to sticking one thru at low level out via VEULE. MAN accept it, and your lower guy is on the verge of premeture baldness as it is. As for level capping, guess what. I see lists of UK bound flights from Iberia held down. I see UK bound flights restricted most by SRS. All costing UK carriers money. At a GUESS, have a word with your French mates. File under a 20NM restriction on the continent, you get a YOYO restriction for the priveledge. At least you guys in the UK are honest. Never knew the French or Italians had so many Milexs.
Keep up the good work UK, we based carrier do thank you for it.
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The blatant nationalism of our European partners has long been a fact of life in aviation especially the French and Spanish. Amazing how often one is number one for approach until a burst of Spanish ATC shifts you to no. 2 or 3, often for turbo props miles away.
