BA CC failed a breathalyser test
Originally Posted by 70 Mustang
To call the police is another.
I would think police would only be required to stop pax from being harmed, blatant disruption, damage, risk to others.
I would think police would only be required to stop pax from being harmed, blatant disruption, damage, risk to others.
Railways and Transport Safety Act 2003
A difficult situation to be in. Having something like this reported to you in front of witnesses is very different to being able to have a “quiet word” with someone and suggest a discreet course of action. The fact that it’s all over the media means that there was probably very little discretion available.
At the moment there is a shortage of pilots and crew in many airlines, and a lot of flights go with a minimum legal crew complement. Standing down a crewmember for any reason will involve mandatory reports. Being presented with someone who is visibly intoxicated leaves little room for manoeuvre.
At the moment there is a shortage of pilots and crew in many airlines, and a lot of flights go with a minimum legal crew complement. Standing down a crewmember for any reason will involve mandatory reports. Being presented with someone who is visibly intoxicated leaves little room for manoeuvre.
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Cloudee
You wouldn’t have ruined her life, she would have done that. By taking no formal action you’ve passed the problem on to the next guy. Command comes with responsibility.
Originally Posted by Ollie Onion
Often at BA you don’t stay with the Cabin Crew and don’t actually perform a formal cabin crew brief so it is feasible the first time the pilot encountered this crew member was during a toilet break or her visiting the flight deck. I had this once myself when a crew member came into the flight deck and smelled like a brewery. I simply said to her that I suggest she reports to the CM that she is too unfit to operate and sit herself in the back row for the remainder of the flight or the other option would be a breath test on arrival. She removed herself, I had a further discussion with her after landing saying that if she did it again it would be the police. I can’t see much point in ruining someone’s life without giving them a chance. I also have had a mate that suggested the same to his FO at report I.e you should go unfit for duty or I will require a breath test before we proceed.
Years ago I did something similar. The F/O was very reluctant to call sick and go home but eventually did. Cloudee, I didn't pass the problem on as he thought long and hard and learnt from it. He subsequently thanked me and we became good friends. Ollie, I didn't ruin his life, in fact I definitely helped to make him into the competent Captain he is today. I'm proud of the decision I made as it neither compromised flight safety nor ruined someone's life.
Last edited by Confusious; 30th Jan 2023 at 10:08.
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It's all a fine line isn't it and it depends on the person's history surely?
If the person is a habitual alcoholic (imo the most likely scenario for reporting to such a job under the influence/ OR drinking on the job) then the person's life would likely be improved in the long term by being forced to face the issue; would likely qualify for help from the airline (it's no longer the case where you just sack an alcoholic and that's that) and they'd perhaps benefit into the future.
If the person just showed up after a very late night with her pals drinking (less likely at 41 as opposed to 21) then yes a quiet word would perhaps be more appropriate.
If the person randomly just decided this was the flight they'd have a few miniatures then a stern talking to is also perhaps appropriate but it's still gross misconduct and a slap in the face to flight safety so I'd probably report it.
As some folk have said - being a Captain brings with it responsibility for the safety of the rest of the crew and the passengers.
If the person is a habitual alcoholic (imo the most likely scenario for reporting to such a job under the influence/ OR drinking on the job) then the person's life would likely be improved in the long term by being forced to face the issue; would likely qualify for help from the airline (it's no longer the case where you just sack an alcoholic and that's that) and they'd perhaps benefit into the future.
If the person just showed up after a very late night with her pals drinking (less likely at 41 as opposed to 21) then yes a quiet word would perhaps be more appropriate.
If the person randomly just decided this was the flight they'd have a few miniatures then a stern talking to is also perhaps appropriate but it's still gross misconduct and a slap in the face to flight safety so I'd probably report it.
As some folk have said - being a Captain brings with it responsibility for the safety of the rest of the crew and the passengers.
Last edited by airspeed75; 30th Jan 2023 at 10:22. Reason: spelling
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Originally Posted by Ollie Onion
Often at BA you don’t stay with the Cabin Crew and don’t actually perform a formal cabin crew brief so it is feasible the first time the pilot encountered this crew member was during a toilet break or her visiting the flight deck..
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by airspeed75
It's all a fine line isn't it and it depends on the person's history surely?
If the person is a habitual alcoholic (imo the most likely scenario for reporting to such a drop under the influence/ OR drinking on the job) then the person's life would likely be improved in the long term by being forced to face the issue; would likely qualify for help from the airline (it's no longer the case where you just sack an alcoholic and that's that) and they'd perhaps benefit into the future.
If the person just showed up after a very late night with her pals drinking (less likely at 41 as opposed to 21) then yes a quiet word would perhaps be more appropriate.
If the person randomly just decided this was the flight they'd have a few miniatures then a stern talking to is also perhaps appropriate but it's still gross misconduct and a slap in the face to flight safety so I'd probably report it.
As some folk have said - being a Captain brings with it responsibility for the safety of the rest of the crew and the passengers.
If the person is a habitual alcoholic (imo the most likely scenario for reporting to such a drop under the influence/ OR drinking on the job) then the person's life would likely be improved in the long term by being forced to face the issue; would likely qualify for help from the airline (it's no longer the case where you just sack an alcoholic and that's that) and they'd perhaps benefit into the future.
If the person just showed up after a very late night with her pals drinking (less likely at 41 as opposed to 21) then yes a quiet word would perhaps be more appropriate.
If the person randomly just decided this was the flight they'd have a few miniatures then a stern talking to is also perhaps appropriate but it's still gross misconduct and a slap in the face to flight safety so I'd probably report it.
As some folk have said - being a Captain brings with it responsibility for the safety of the rest of the crew and the passengers.
"On return from Gran Canaria".
ie sector 2.
How was this not spotted and acted upon on sector 1?
Hard to credit that she was over the limit 11-12hrs after coming on duty (few people I imagine drink heavily and immediately go to work as cabin crew) so the implication may well be that she was drinking from the bar - ie theft too.
The poor Captain was put in a hideous position. Do nothing and be complicit to the crime or do his legally required duty and find himself reviled in the crewroom. Sadly it's his duty to act, a part of being a Professional.
Compassion is probably the right approach in the crewroon at report time but doesn't enter into it once actually on duty and has no place in such an event unless the Captain chooses to abrogate his Professional duty and become an accessory to the offence.
ie sector 2.
How was this not spotted and acted upon on sector 1?
Hard to credit that she was over the limit 11-12hrs after coming on duty (few people I imagine drink heavily and immediately go to work as cabin crew) so the implication may well be that she was drinking from the bar - ie theft too.
The poor Captain was put in a hideous position. Do nothing and be complicit to the crime or do his legally required duty and find himself reviled in the crewroom. Sadly it's his duty to act, a part of being a Professional.
Compassion is probably the right approach in the crewroon at report time but doesn't enter into it once actually on duty and has no place in such an event unless the Captain chooses to abrogate his Professional duty and become an accessory to the offence.
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by meleagertoo
"On return from Gran Canaria".
ie sector 2.
How was this not spotted and acted upon on sector 1?
Hard to credit that she was over the limit 11-12hrs after coming on duty (few people I imagine drink heavily and immediately go to work as cabin crew) so the implication may well be that she was drinking from the bar - ie theft too.
The poor Captain was put in a hideous position. Do nothing and be complicit to the crime or do his legally required duty and find himself reviled in the crewroom. Sadly it's his duty to act, a part of being a Professional.
Compassion doesn't enter into this and has no place in such an event unless the Captain chooses to abrogate his Professional duty and become an accessory to the offence.
ie sector 2.
How was this not spotted and acted upon on sector 1?
Hard to credit that she was over the limit 11-12hrs after coming on duty (few people I imagine drink heavily and immediately go to work as cabin crew) so the implication may well be that she was drinking from the bar - ie theft too.
The poor Captain was put in a hideous position. Do nothing and be complicit to the crime or do his legally required duty and find himself reviled in the crewroom. Sadly it's his duty to act, a part of being a Professional.
Compassion doesn't enter into this and has no place in such an event unless the Captain chooses to abrogate his Professional duty and become an accessory to the offence.
Originally Posted by FullWings
A difficult situation to be in. Having something like this reported to you in front of witnesses is very different to being able to have a “quiet word” with someone and suggest a discreet course of action..
Unfortunately somebody on the crew (who was not involved at all in the evenings events) wasn't feeling quite as "comradery" and the problem got back to base...
Not real harm was done but I'm afraid post that incident my advice to aspiring commanders was in this modern world once a third party is witness or even hears about something questionable you have to CYA.
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Reporting is one thing…
… no, reporting a suspicion of intoxication onboard by aircrew always leads to management calling the police. Who do you think can carry out the drug and alcohol tests? There’s no such thing as reporting a crew member who is drunk, and they go home to sort out their hangover afterwards. The law in unforgiving, maybe for you brits is more relaxed?
In the real world that doesn’t happen and the airline will always look to cover their backs.
… no, reporting a suspicion of intoxication onboard by aircrew always leads to management calling the police. Who do you think can carry out the drug and alcohol tests? There’s no such thing as reporting a crew member who is drunk, and they go home to sort out their hangover afterwards. The law in unforgiving, maybe for you brits is more relaxed?
In the real world that doesn’t happen and the airline will always look to cover their backs.
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Originally Posted by meleagertoo
"On return from Gran Canaria".
ie sector 2.
How was this not spotted and acted upon on sector 1?
Hard to credit that she was over the limit 11-12hrs after coming on duty (few people I imagine drink heavily and immediately go to work as cabin crew) so the implication may well be that she was drinking from the bar - ie theft too.
The poor Captain was put in a hideous position. Do nothing and be complicit to the crime or do his legally required duty and find himself reviled in the crewroom. Sadly it's his duty to act, a part of being a Professional.
Compassion is probably the right approach in the crewroon at report time but doesn't enter into it once actually on duty and has no place in such an event unless the Captain chooses to abrogate his Professional duty and become an accessory to the offence.
ie sector 2.
How was this not spotted and acted upon on sector 1?
Hard to credit that she was over the limit 11-12hrs after coming on duty (few people I imagine drink heavily and immediately go to work as cabin crew) so the implication may well be that she was drinking from the bar - ie theft too.
The poor Captain was put in a hideous position. Do nothing and be complicit to the crime or do his legally required duty and find himself reviled in the crewroom. Sadly it's his duty to act, a part of being a Professional.
Compassion is probably the right approach in the crewroon at report time but doesn't enter into it once actually on duty and has no place in such an event unless the Captain chooses to abrogate his Professional duty and become an accessory to the offence.
“complicit to the crime” “ accessory to the offence”morally maybe, legally on what basis? Criminal law or SERA ?
And it is of course an alleged crime until proven. Smelling of alcohol isn’t a crime and is very subjective anyway.
The impairment ( reason undiagnosed in flight ) was dealt with.
The problem ( professional duty) is how to prevent said crew member from operating impaired in the future.
Tested, charged ,sacked, convicted and jailed will solve the problem but I feel for our colleague who needs compassion and help.
70 Mustang
Dunno, I'm living of a pension these days so maybe you'll have to ask the yoof here about that ..
"
Given my old age I recall much the same brief...in that environment it worked well: Long Haul, Carrier Pigeon instead of e-mail, and yes, as I recall it through the mists of time things were perhaps more "comerady"...
I'm not sure you can rely on the same solidarity now .........(now that might be the generational thing and how they are managed)...
Perhaps it is a generational thing?
"
When i started, i was told there were very few real rules. Don't break the airplane, don't hurt anybody, what happens in the flt deck, stays in the flt deck, what happens in the cabin, stays in the cabin. As much as possible. Other than that, deal with it "in house." The less individuals informed, the better.
I'm not sure you can rely on the same solidarity now .........(now that might be the generational thing and how they are managed)...
Thread Starter
I'll take a bet that everyone here has at some point in their career made a mistake which was successfully 'covered up' by their colleague(s), which otherwise would have landed them in a spot of bother with the company.
The scenario of stealing from the bar and drinking enroute is the only one which would leave no options of exercising compassion, especially as it must have been reported by others.
The scenario of stealing from the bar and drinking enroute is the only one which would leave no options of exercising compassion, especially as it must have been reported by others.
Given I no longer have a say in this, probably my final input on this..
Given all we have is an MSM report on this I'm not sure why there seems to have been a bit of a rush to assume what the captain did or didn't do or say to anybody, or indeed what their entire role in the incident was....there seems to have been a bit of a rush to claim they could have been handled more sympathetically, but who knows?
Maybe when/if this sadly goes court we will be better informed.
Given all we have is an MSM report on this I'm not sure why there seems to have been a bit of a rush to assume what the captain did or didn't do or say to anybody, or indeed what their entire role in the incident was....there seems to have been a bit of a rush to claim they could have been handled more sympathetically, but who knows?
Maybe when/if this sadly goes court we will be better informed.
Originally Posted by wiggy
Given I no longer have a say in this, probably my final input on this..
Given all we have is an MSM report on this I'm not sure why there seems to have been a bit of a rush to assume what the captain did or didn't do or say to anybody, or indeed what their entire role in the incident was....there seems to have been a bit of a rush to claim they could have been handled more sympathetically, but who knows?
Maybe when/if this sadly goes court we will be better informed.
Given all we have is an MSM report on this I'm not sure why there seems to have been a bit of a rush to assume what the captain did or didn't do or say to anybody, or indeed what their entire role in the incident was....there seems to have been a bit of a rush to claim they could have been handled more sympathetically, but who knows?
Maybe when/if this sadly goes court we will be better informed.
For one we don’t know if an individual is in a particular stressful period of their life. Divorce, break-up, custody battles, financial problems, eviction pending or a multitude of other reasons.
You can make the assumption that an individual is a functioning alcoholic but you don’t know that for sure.
Showing up unfit for duty maybe habitual or a one time never happens again.
We can’t end someone’s career on the 50/50 chance we may be wrong.
You can make the assumption that an individual is a functioning alcoholic but you don’t know that for sure.
Showing up unfit for duty maybe habitual or a one time never happens again.
We can’t end someone’s career on the 50/50 chance we may be wrong.
Originally Posted by B2N2
For one we don’t know if an individual is in a particular stressful period of their life. Divorce, break-up, custody battles, financial problems, eviction pending or a multitude of other reasons.
You can make the assumption that an individual is a functioning alcoholic but you don’t know that for sure.
Showing up unfit for duty maybe habitual or a one time never happens again.
We can’t end someone’s career on the 50/50 chance we may be wrong.
You can make the assumption that an individual is a functioning alcoholic but you don’t know that for sure.
Showing up unfit for duty maybe habitual or a one time never happens again.
We can’t end someone’s career on the 50/50 chance we may be wrong.
Originally Posted by SWBKCB
Agreed - for all we know she was can-canning up and down the aisle or pouring coffee over customers, or maybe just a victim of a malicious colleague ("if you don't do something about it, I'll report you..."). So many bricks being made from so little straw.
Agreed...here's why - back end of my career I stupidly thought we had resolved a problem down route to everybody's satisfaction.
Originally Posted by Flyhighfirst
Sorry. You are forgetting this person tested over the limit. They can not under any circumstances be a victim. They may have a problem, and this may force them to deal with it, but a victim they are not!
Passengers looked on in shock as their Airbus A320 parked on a remote stand and was locked down for 45 minutes on arrival in the UK on Thursday afternoon.
