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France Bans Short Range Flights

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France Bans Short Range Flights

Old 9th Dec 2022, 06:31
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by CVividasku
Regarding the efficiency of the measure at reducing emissions, it is NEGATIVE.
Indeed :
Orly is limited to 250 000 flights per year.
The shortest flights from Orly will be terminated.
The 250k cap will remain the same.
Other flights will take the place of Orly Bordeaux, Lyon, Nantes
These flights will be necessarily longer
The CO2 emissions of airplanes taking off from Orly will be higher.

But the environmentalists are too dense and far from knowing anything about the facts used in this reasoning.
If those suggested additional routes from Orly had made commercial sense, airlines would be flying them already as Orly has had plenty of headroom below the 250K cap over the last few years.
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Old 9th Dec 2022, 06:53
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Normally 2 hours before arrive at the airport. Say 1 hour flight, then at least 2 hour layover. 5 hours total. Or arrive at train station 10 minutes before train. 2.5 hours on train or trains, arrive 2 hours before the flight. 4 hrs 40 minutes. Quicker or at least not longer. So where’s the problem?
That's fine until some jobsworth decides to introduce the current airport checks to the rail network. Surprised it hasn't happened yet tbh.​​​​​​​​​​​​​​
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Old 9th Dec 2022, 07:04
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Iirc the french government made an illegal under European law subvention to Air France during covid with the proviso that they stopped internal flights which they did but operated them just the same using Transavia.
I’ve done a series of international train journeys originating from Nimes over the years.
24 years ago to London after leaving our catamaran in Aiguës Morte ..very nearly robbed by a gang outside Gare du Lyon.
20 years ago to Granada with my paraglider via Barcelona rather than by air via London to Malaga. Floods in Spain which washed away the tracks and ended up on a coach. Journey back via Madrid wasn’t much better.
15 years ago from the canal network south of Paris..via Paris/Clermont Ferrand/ Alès..purely to take the train across the Cévennes..fabulous except hot as train driver had to shut off the aircon to get up the gradients into the mountains.
8 years ago to Ghent via Lille rather than Nimes Charleroi coach/train..this one was the best train journey and not far behind Nimes/Lyon/Geneva with same day return.
October 5 day trip to a course reunion at the RAF club..Nimes..gare du Lyon ..gare du nord..st pancreas..mainly because my wife has Parkinson’s and flying isn’t the best. Transfer outbound on the metro disaster due to signage and construction…route back simple..more expensive especially parking at Nimes gare..no catering on TGV either way “ exceptionnellement » b@ll@x.
The biggest change in French aviation was the war against O’Leary which saw him withdrawing substantially, building up Bergamo rather than Nîmes which devastated the tourism around the gulf du Lyon.
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Old 9th Dec 2022, 07:10
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We travelled across Europe earlier this year by train. Several first class,(not expensive) very comfortable and great service. Some second class, still more comfortable than by air. No security, little waiting, good access from town. 250K and decent train service seems about right.

One thing I wouldn't mind if they regulated is access to sectors for longer 'deals.'
We're going to Europe in January (Don't worry, we're going on to Egypt.) The flight is Seattle to Gatwick via Calgary and then return Amsterdam to Vancouver via Calgary.. So now we need to get from Kelowna to Seattle. Yup, We go Kelowna, Calgary, Seattle, then Seattle, Calgary, London.

We've had this situation before and the airlines absolutely will not l;et us get on at Calgary. I understand their reasoning but it sure doesn't make much sense. (Of course we'd be happy to pay for the whole flight, after all it is just $150 Cdn per ticket!)
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Old 9th Dec 2022, 08:16
  #25 (permalink)  
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Back to the original discussion ; This measure is just politician PR to show the electorate that they do something for the climate . AF will comntinue as before all its internal flights , as the connecting flights are not affected by the measure , only point to point . All the potentially affected flights from CDG ( Bordeaux and Lyon and a Lyon-Marseille was the main ones ) are excluded from the measure.
only 3 lines remained affected ,all from Orly : , Orly-Boodeaux, Orly-Nantes and Orly-Lyon , but those 3 were already abandonned for lack of profitabilty over a year ago.


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Old 9th Dec 2022, 08:39
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Originally Posted by ATC Watcher
Back to the original discussion; This measure is just politician PR to show the electorate that they do something for the climate. AF will continue as before all its internal flights, as the connecting flights are not affected by the measure, only point to point
No - while France initially proposed that services with a high proportion of connecting passengers should be exempt, that provision was removed in the final deal with the EU.
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Old 9th Dec 2022, 09:14
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Hotel in central Paris to Hotel in central Toulouse was quicker by train last time I did it. And a whole lot less stressful.

No security, no mad cabbies, no stress of missing the flight due overcrowding at checkin, no stress of lost bags, plenty of opportunity to stroll around, huge seats.... need I go on?
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Old 9th Dec 2022, 09:39
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However, if you are using your flight from your origin as a feeder flight to fly on somewhere else .... it's much more efficient baggage-interlining, overall time-wise and stress-wise to do the whole kit and caboodle by air ... or at least in theory!
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Old 9th Dec 2022, 10:27
  #29 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
No - while France initially proposed that services with a high proportion of connecting passengers should be exempt, that provision was removed in the final deal with the EU.
Interesting .but what I wrote is what I read yesterday in my weekly french info newspaper that is normally very well informed. AF still confirms its connecting flights to Bordeaux from CDG for the summer so let's see who is right in a few months .
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Old 9th Dec 2022, 11:25
  #30 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by compressor stall
Hotel in central Paris to Hotel in central Toulouse was quicker by train last time I did it. And a whole lot less stressful.

No security, no mad cabbies, no stress of missing the flight due overcrowding at checkin, no stress of lost bags, plenty of opportunity to stroll around, huge seats.... need I go on?
...and last time I did just this, great food and drinks on the upper deck.
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Old 9th Dec 2022, 15:00
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Originally Posted by ATC Watcher
They do, if they would only read the title of the text in the first post : The rule applies to air routes where a train or bus alternative of less than 2.5 hours exists.
That would work well in the UK, 2.5 hours from London by train to err....Brighton ?
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Old 9th Dec 2022, 15:47
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Originally Posted by tourops
That would work well in the UK, 2.5 hours from London by train to err....Brighton ?
London to Manchester 2hr 7 mins.
London to Leeds 2hr 14 mins
London to Liverpool 2hr 18 mins.
London to Newcastle 2hr 37mins.
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Old 9th Dec 2022, 19:50
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My most recent flight was 1 hour of block time. 37 minutes in the air.
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Old 10th Dec 2022, 09:54
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The problem is that it is assumed that everyone wants to visit the centre of cities. Where I live it takes about roughly the same time to get to Heathrow as St Pancras. Getting to Paris by train wins out but Amsterdam is quicker by air.

In my experience advocates of high speed rail tend to be very passionate about their product and think that everyone should fit around it and prefer the stick to the carrot. Interestingly this is generally not the case with conventional networks where the carrot is more in vogue. Or possibly the car lobby is more vocal than the aviation lobby.

Environmentalists like to concentrate on a particular issue rather than take an holistic view. People need to look at their overall carbon usage but that doersn't fit the soundbite approach some (not all) environmentalists take.

The trouble with the French high speed network is that it is not very frequent at certain times of the day and having Ouigo as a separate brand doesn't help.

That said the nain route that will be affected is Paris - Lyon where the train service is pretty good and the station is well situated so it may not be that large an issue..
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Old 10th Dec 2022, 10:09
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If they ban short flights they will kill their regional airports. Green centralism.
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Old 10th Dec 2022, 16:14
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Not sure it's practical. I just costed up going from Swindon 1st class to Antibes for an ETSI meeting on Jan 18. Over £600 Fully flexible by train. BA Club Class just under half.. Travel time of over 13 hours by train. Our hourly rate against a job is $250, so that's $3250. BA travel time is much less. Plus i could get back in one day - by train, i need an overnight stay in Antibes. You may ask why First Class is necessary? It's in their contract of employment that they get First \Class on trains, Business Class on aircraft provided. the flight exceeds three hours and F is not available. I don't see our customer paying so much to be "green". When it was tried by a cost cutting MD to send them economy, we lost so many engineers in tewo months that they had to pay vast sums in bonuses to avoid almost crippling penalty costs.
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Old 10th Dec 2022, 18:57
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Originally Posted by lightonthewater
Am not saying that the UK rail network is perfect, (and indeed the present strikes make it very imperfect) However, those comparing the costs of rail with air so often do not compare like with like: they take the cheapest advance airfare and compare it with the 'pay at the last minute' train fare.
To make a fair comparison, the comparison should be based on the comparable last minute fare for each method of transport, or , alternatively, at the cheapest available advance fare for each (using an appropriate railcard in the case of trains) . Plus the cost and duration of the transport between the airport and the city centres should also be added to the equation. The two modes of transport come out much closer when you do that .
I have often made this argument. I recently saw someone compare a double room on the Caledonian Sleeper from Inverness to London with the same route on easyJet. Of course, easyJet was much cheaper, however, easyJet does not let you take as much baggage as you can carry, does not give you a private bedroom, with free breakfast, nor does it include ticket flexibility or complimentary lounge access at either end. The fairest comparison would be between easyJet and a sleeper train seat or the double room, and a fully flexible BA business class ticket.
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Old 10th Dec 2022, 23:13
  #38 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by common toad
EU trumps national government on law making.

Ponder that …
Until we care to differentiate what actually happened. The basic layout says ANYTHING is allowed unless restricted with conditions or forbidden by a law.

On this occastion, the government tried to cull a right to conduct business and provide public service (implicit within the conditions of a licence) and the entities involved appealed to a higher instance 'above their government'.

According to the rules in place, which the French state signed for and help create for long decades in the first place, that regulatory move was found illegal. The EU organs whom the French state help create themselves declared a non-compliance on the edict, in favour of the to-be-restricted stakeholders.

Like it.

Does it open a Pandora's box? Not necessarily but better make sure it don't - good call as well.
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Old 10th Dec 2022, 23:15
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
If those suggested additional routes from Orly had made commercial sense, airlines would be flying them already as Orly has had plenty of headroom below the 250K cap over the last few years.
Not necessarily. For example Vueling gained some slots in 2021 and started using them.
Originally Posted by compressor stall
Hotel in central Paris to Hotel in central Toulouse was quicker by train last time I did it. And a whole lot less stressful.

No security, no mad cabbies, no stress of missing the flight due overcrowding at checkin, no stress of lost bags, plenty of opportunity to stroll around, huge seats.... need I go on?
Let me just ask one question.
Of security, cabbies (whatever that is), stress of overcrowding, lost bags, etc... are so much of an inconvenience... Why are more and more people jumping in on airplanes year after year ?
Are they all stupid and unaware that there is a better option ?
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Old 10th Dec 2022, 23:18
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Originally Posted by blind pew
The biggest change in French aviation was the war against O’Leary which saw him withdrawing substantially, building up Bergamo rather than Nîmes which devastated the tourism around the gulf du Lyon.
And the EU pro pilots couldn't be more thankful for any other development in the last decade. RYR keeps sneaking out of their oath with Buzz and Air Malta, sure. But at least we did not get completely annihilated.

Noted, your explanation about the AF subsidy was not clear when i typed the -1 post above. Thanks.
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