FAA encourages manual flying proficiency
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The statement "regardless of the wx" is as equally insane as keeping everything on all the time.
I dread to think of all pilots out there who can't do a manual approach in less than visual conditions. Failures of automation does not care about the weather.
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Maintaining manual flying skills is a requirement to be a professional pilot. One must be able to fly the aircraft without autopilot and auto throttle. AND at the same time have be able to think about handling an emergency with your fellow pilot. Handling the stick and throttle should be second nature to a professional pilot. The only way to get that way is to fly to altitude and descend from altitude in a manual mode.
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So the FAA want pilots to do more manual flying yet EASA is pushing to have single pilot cockpits where the automation is the dominant partner in the operation of the aircraft. Well regulators you can't have it both ways. Either the pilots are in control or the automation is. Manual flying is a perishable skill and unless it is constantly practiced it wont be available when needed. I try and fly by example by not putting the A/P in until past transition and disconnecting early on approach yet most F/O's will engage the A/P even before the flaps are retracted and disconnect at 500'. Yes its an Airbus and easy to fly but the scan and the coordination still need to be practiced. The occasional manual flying exercise in the simulator is not the solution either. Flying in turbulence in cloud doing climbing or descending turns cannot be replicated effectively in the sim. The sim is a very good training tool not a real aircraft being subject to the vagaries of turbulence and wind changes close to the ground.
I just flew an approach with the Auto Pilot and Auto Throttles off an hour ago. I make it a point to always disconnect the AP at 1000 AGL on every approach except in marginal Wx, and at least once a week I fly with the A/T off. You have to keep your proficiency up. I’ll always brief the F/O what I’m doing and to back me up, and I normally will brief that I plan on acting like a “real pilot” on this approach by disconnecting the automation. Try flying a raw data ILS sometime, it can get ugly if you don’t practice them enough.
Most guys at my airline will hand fly the takeoff and climb until FL 180, and all disconnect the AT around 1000 AGL. I’ll usually keep a close eye on F/O’s who couple everything up as soon as possible..it’s a Red Flag to me. Many of the weaker pilots tend to do this.
Most guys at my airline will hand fly the takeoff and climb until FL 180, and all disconnect the AT around 1000 AGL. I’ll usually keep a close eye on F/O’s who couple everything up as soon as possible..it’s a Red Flag to me. Many of the weaker pilots tend to do this.
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Chiefttp That sounds like a fun captain to fly with! I have had several giving me the look when not pressing the AP as soon as possible, several: Are you gonna fly up to the other airport manually? // Is it gonna be manual flying the whole way!? because of it.
My go to is: Check the sid and brief that i'll put the AP once the last turn is done or when there's a straight leg.
Same for the approach, tend to disconnect at around 2000 or with flaps 2, AT depends and manual breaking ( this last comes after auto brake failure for 1 week straight and continued manual braking for most of the flights afterwards )
Going to ME or Asia and doing all that might mean you'll have a meeting or a fine if something goes SLIGHTLY off limits.
My go to is: Check the sid and brief that i'll put the AP once the last turn is done or when there's a straight leg.
Same for the approach, tend to disconnect at around 2000 or with flaps 2, AT depends and manual breaking ( this last comes after auto brake failure for 1 week straight and continued manual braking for most of the flights afterwards )
Going to ME or Asia and doing all that might mean you'll have a meeting or a fine if something goes SLIGHTLY off limits.
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The statement "regardless of the wx" is as equally insane as keeping everything on all the time. There are days when it's not the right time to "make a point" and you should use all available tools to help you out. At the end of the day, we are there to keep the passengers safe, not to show we can do something.
More than once, I’ve had to turn off all the automation and go almost to minimums raw data. Best to stay proficient.
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200-1/2 and A/p available but deliberately not used ..
Is it Insane? No
Irresponsible and unprofessional .... Yes
Is it Insane? No
Irresponsible and unprofessional .... Yes
I am with Check Airman. I have done 200-1/2 raw data "for fun". There is no restrictions on my ATPL. Company does not prohibit it. It's the only way I can assure myself I am able to do it. Call it Quality Assurance. Simulator is not sufficient. Simulator is good for many things, but not maintaining piloting skills. Normal 1/2 scale deflections apply or you bail out.
Last edited by 172_driver; 1st Dec 2022 at 07:43.
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Check Airman: To me it is elementary that pilots should remain able to achieve as an absolute minimum the standard set when they first qualify throughout their career! There seems to be a significant risk that that is not currently happening, because of the over-emphasis on using automation to the maximum extent possible by some operators. I am all in favour of pilots getting manual practice and keeping their skills as polished as possible, and not just in a simulator.
This is really all about risk management in the industry. Maintaining manual skills is a long term safety objective because those skills will be essential on rare occasions. However there’s also the issue of minimising risk in the short term in the particular circumstances of each individual flight. E.g. CheckAirman, you’ve now added:
That is exactly the type of “particular circumstance” I’m referring to. The A/P and F/D must have been engaged to start with or you wouldn’t been able to find their performance unsatisfactory.
So can we get some clarity here about where to draw the line? The inference I’ve been drawing from some of these comments is that in the situation where you have a serviceable autopilot etc and the reported weather is right on the minimums, it’s perfectly acceptable to practice hand flying instead. And I don’t think that’s a very professional attitude.
This is really all about risk management in the industry. Maintaining manual skills is a long term safety objective because those skills will be essential on rare occasions. However there’s also the issue of minimising risk in the short term in the particular circumstances of each individual flight. E.g. CheckAirman, you’ve now added:
So can we get some clarity here about where to draw the line? The inference I’ve been drawing from some of these comments is that in the situation where you have a serviceable autopilot etc and the reported weather is right on the minimums, it’s perfectly acceptable to practice hand flying instead. And I don’t think that’s a very professional attitude.
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So can we get some clarity here about where to draw the line? The inference I’ve been drawing from some of these comments is that in the situation where you have a serviceable autopilot etc and the reported weather is right on the minimums, it’s perfectly acceptable to practice hand flying instead. And I don’t think that’s a very professional attitude.
Here is an incident where they were all over the place: https://avherald.com/h?article=4c65913a
Fortunately they found VMC and could land.
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Check Airman: To me it is elementary that pilots should remain able to achieve as an absolute minimum the standard set when they first qualify throughout their career! There seems to be a significant risk that that is not currently happening, because of the over-emphasis on using automation to the maximum extent possible by some operators. I am all in favour of pilots getting manual practice and keeping their skills as polished as possible, and not just in a simulator.
This is really all about risk management in the industry. Maintaining manual skills is a long term safety objective because those skills will be essential on rare occasions. However there’s also the issue of minimising risk in the short term in the particular circumstances of each individual flight. E.g. CheckAirman, you’ve now added:
That is exactly the type of “particular circumstance” I’m referring to. The A/P and F/D must have been engaged to start with or you wouldn’t been able to find their performance unsatisfactory.
So can we get some clarity here about where to draw the line? The inference I’ve been drawing from some of these comments is that in the situation where you have a serviceable autopilot etc and the reported weather is right on the minimums, it’s perfectly acceptable to practice hand flying instead. And I don’t think that’s a very professional attitude.
This is really all about risk management in the industry. Maintaining manual skills is a long term safety objective because those skills will be essential on rare occasions. However there’s also the issue of minimising risk in the short term in the particular circumstances of each individual flight. E.g. CheckAirman, you’ve now added:
That is exactly the type of “particular circumstance” I’m referring to. The A/P and F/D must have been engaged to start with or you wouldn’t been able to find their performance unsatisfactory.
So can we get some clarity here about where to draw the line? The inference I’ve been drawing from some of these comments is that in the situation where you have a serviceable autopilot etc and the reported weather is right on the minimums, it’s perfectly acceptable to practice hand flying instead. And I don’t think that’s a very professional attitude.
-You get the confidence to fly right down to mins by consistent application of your skills. I’m not good enough to do it once every 6 months and stay proficient. Rust accumulates.
-If I see the weather is right at 200-1/2, I’m planning for the CAT 2/3 approach. (Back then, cat 2/3 wasn’t an option available to us)
-Personally, I think given commercial considerations, raw data down to 500ft ceilings gives extremely generous margins. I’d have no issues if the other guy wanted to hand fly an approach like that.
-Current company requires FD on for approach when below 1000-3 anyway, so the point is moot for me right now
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Or what if the doctor said he can’t give a diagnosis because the EKG computer won’t tell him what’s wrong with your heartbeat? Are you going to go back?
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Well I can see some merit in your first message just above, but are you sure you want to stick with those analogies in the second one?!? 
I’ve shown up at the doctor’s. He says “I need to know your blood pressure but the machine isn’t working”. So what’s next? I can say “Hmm, not impressed by this practice’s maintenance, maybe I’ll go somewhere else”. Or “OK I’ll come back when it’s fixed”. Or “well I’ve only come in because I’ve got a blister on my heel, how important is my blood pressure in this case? (etc…)
But as a more accurate analogy to this case he would say “I need to know your blood pressure - I’m pretty good at estimating it and I like to keep in practice, so I won’t bother with the shiny accurate machine just over there!” Now how confident would YOU feel about the subsequent diagnosis?
And in the second example, isn’t that what often happens – he says “the EKG won’t tell me what’s wrong, I’ll need to do more tests to figure it out”. It doesn’t show he’s incompetent. Would you rather he said “the EKG won’t tell me what’s wrong, but who needs EKGs anyway – I’ve got enough experience to do without it” ?? Or even "I'm a bit rusty at this so I want to try doing without it, just to make sure I can!"
I’ve shown up at the doctor’s. He says “I need to know your blood pressure but the machine isn’t working”. So what’s next? I can say “Hmm, not impressed by this practice’s maintenance, maybe I’ll go somewhere else”. Or “OK I’ll come back when it’s fixed”. Or “well I’ve only come in because I’ve got a blister on my heel, how important is my blood pressure in this case? (etc…)
But as a more accurate analogy to this case he would say “I need to know your blood pressure - I’m pretty good at estimating it and I like to keep in practice, so I won’t bother with the shiny accurate machine just over there!” Now how confident would YOU feel about the subsequent diagnosis?
And in the second example, isn’t that what often happens – he says “the EKG won’t tell me what’s wrong, I’ll need to do more tests to figure it out”. It doesn’t show he’s incompetent. Would you rather he said “the EKG won’t tell me what’s wrong, but who needs EKGs anyway – I’ve got enough experience to do without it” ?? Or even "I'm a bit rusty at this so I want to try doing without it, just to make sure I can!"
Last edited by slast; 1st Dec 2022 at 17:11.
