Air France crew fighting
This seems to be the BEA report mentioned:
https://www.google.co.uk/url?q=https...CUrwuzvohRqM1z
It does tell AF off for having too many stupid incidents (paraphrase) but it doesn't mention fisticuffs or a Geneva-Paris flight
https://www.google.co.uk/url?q=https...CUrwuzvohRqM1z
It does tell AF off for having too many stupid incidents (paraphrase) but it doesn't mention fisticuffs or a Geneva-Paris flight
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I will not fly on Air France again. (The last time was because 'work' booked it, but that will not happen again.)
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The same did happen inside a 777 cockpit of Emirates, 5 or 6 years ago (if we name AF, why not EK ?) But thanks to the very secretive way of dealing with incidents in that particular airline, nobody heard too much about it in the rest of the world. As far as I remember, it was linked to a woman story. A woman related to both of them.
Does anyone know what was the dispute about? Climb has usually not the highest workload, so I wonder what they were arguing about. Woman story and French pilots would fill the stereotype.
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They've already had one fatal accident because of this and really need to get a grip otherwise there will be more..
AF may be overrepresented, but, those are humans stuck in the rabbit hutch, dealing with their issues, and nationally, the French are quite forward in presenting the merits of their views. There are situations that is desirable, others not so much. The whole story would be interesting. The unfortunate issue is that at the point that the matter has degraded to this extent, the whole operation has been and is continued to be compromised, and that ultimately is a responsibility for the PIC in management of the complete crew, warts n' all. Either side may start it, either side can escalate it, but the one person that has to recover the situation is the PIC. Sucks.
As to "national traits", one of the best CRM implementers I have had the pleasure to work with was from France, not a big sample lot, one of the 3 best helicopter instructors I have ever worked with was a simple french farm boy, (the other 2 chopper guys were both JSDF naval helicopter pilots). I've kicked a pilot off a flight deck in the dark past, replaced him with a F/E, the clown having decided to try a reckless trick that was not briefed, trained, called for or comprehended by the twit, and done while I was in the back of the plane, resulting in 4 injuries, including myself. Stupidity is not limited to race, language or religion.
447, while incorporating MMI factors, was at its root cause a failure of training and comprehension, and a pilot that was placed into a situation that defeated his understanding, leading to irrational but understandable inputs under a fearful existential situation. If there is a time for a tiff on the cockpit, that is one where it may have been reasonable.
As to "national traits", one of the best CRM implementers I have had the pleasure to work with was from France, not a big sample lot, one of the 3 best helicopter instructors I have ever worked with was a simple french farm boy, (the other 2 chopper guys were both JSDF naval helicopter pilots). I've kicked a pilot off a flight deck in the dark past, replaced him with a F/E, the clown having decided to try a reckless trick that was not briefed, trained, called for or comprehended by the twit, and done while I was in the back of the plane, resulting in 4 injuries, including myself. Stupidity is not limited to race, language or religion.
447, while incorporating MMI factors, was at its root cause a failure of training and comprehension, and a pilot that was placed into a situation that defeated his understanding, leading to irrational but understandable inputs under a fearful existential situation. If there is a time for a tiff on the cockpit, that is one where it may have been reasonable.
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It's just pathetic you "guys" only underline the nationality of the pilots but not the gender and that you root a CRM incident to the supposed nationality of those involved. Pprune at its best !
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Indeed Flying Coyote, always the same good old basic French bashing coming back , which is now left on my the mods as it raises traffic (and revenue ). Was a bit different when the site was moderated by its founder, Danny , but we have to accept it is a commercial site now and endure this.,. That said, Mods, when I see posts like this one here :
It indicate clearly that the poster is not a Professional pilot and making a pure racist remark, which is not really acceptable in todays 'world.
Unbelievable! Oh well, that’s them definitely on my no fly list now. You would expect behavior and Professionalism like this in the Congo or such like, but a European Flag carrier?!!
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Are you trying to claim there's no causational correlation between certain nations and incident/accident rates?
If so, why does the EU ban eg DRC, Afghanistan, Nepal, Eritrean, Sierra Leone, Libyan airlines - is that racist, are their airlines just unlucky?
Korean had a similarly excessive incident/accident rate with suspected cultural elements, they recognised it, and addressed it. Time for Air France to do the same... Failing that, a ban from eu skies - mustn't be racist - airline of a white Western nation must follow the same rules!...
If so, why does the EU ban eg DRC, Afghanistan, Nepal, Eritrean, Sierra Leone, Libyan airlines - is that racist, are their airlines just unlucky?
Korean had a similarly excessive incident/accident rate with suspected cultural elements, they recognised it, and addressed it. Time for Air France to do the same... Failing that, a ban from eu skies - mustn't be racist - airline of a white Western nation must follow the same rules!...
Last edited by midnight cruiser; 30th Aug 2022 at 22:12.
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I find this hard to believe but there is another report out there claiming an Air France crew that was waiting to takeoff with an Airbus 350 was cleared to position and then cleared for takeoff and added takeoff power only to realize that one of its engines was still shutdown... If true then this incredible even for Air France!
Unfortunately you must subscribe to read the article.
https://www.latribune.fr/entreprises...ls-928608.html
Unfortunately you must subscribe to read the article.
https://www.latribune.fr/entreprises...ls-928608.html
Last edited by Jet Jockey A4; 31st Aug 2022 at 01:51.
Only half a speed-brake
Fairly recent. Is this what the college requirement is all about? I mean, the report is typed rather gracefully. 
My home place had a fight decades ago about jumpseat priority for family members, F/O's wife against CA's girlfriend. Being the gentlemen they were, the boys fought each other on their significant other's behalf.
Minor lacerations due contact with cockpit environment, pilot AOGed and flight cancelled due lack of immediate backup. Bye bye 5 days Dubai layover.
My home place had a fight decades ago about jumpseat priority for family members, F/O's wife against CA's girlfriend. Being the gentlemen they were, the boys fought each other on their significant other's behalf.
Minor lacerations due contact with cockpit environment, pilot AOGed and flight cancelled due lack of immediate backup. Bye bye 5 days Dubai layover.
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Now here we agree is that Air France needs to seriously change its culture. AF is still an airline where some senior captains can basically do whatever they want without any fear of consequences. In the aftermath of AF447 a long list of "deviations from the norm "were identified and were supposed ( and promised by management) to be addressed. It went well for a while, now this BEA report shows us that the old ways are back. There is much more on this report that this fight in the cockpit. that are far more worrying from a safety point of view. And again I agree with you that perhaps a "Korean solution " is needed before AF makes the headlines again with more drastic consequences. Maybe that is also what the BEA is trying to say with this report.
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This is not the way it works, a nation is not banned, the lack of a regulator enforcing rules is what causes the airlines of that nation to be banned. Nothing to do with its people. The French bashing here on this site is on "The French" and their supposed characteristics making them unfit in some eyes. The earlier quote of : You would expect behavior and Professionalism like this in the Congo or such like,", is indeed a racist remark whatever you look at it.
Now here we agree is that Air France needs to seriously change its culture. AF is still an airline where some senior captains can basically do whatever they want without any fear of consequences. In the aftermath of AF447 a long list of "deviations from the norm "were identified and were supposed ( and promised by management) to be addressed. It went well for a while, now this BEA report shows us that the old ways are back. There is much more on this report that this fight in the cockpit. that are far more worrying from a safety point of view. And again I agree with you that perhaps a "Korean solution " is needed before AF makes the headlines again with more drastic consequences. Maybe that is also what the BEA is trying to say with this report.
Now here we agree is that Air France needs to seriously change its culture. AF is still an airline where some senior captains can basically do whatever they want without any fear of consequences. In the aftermath of AF447 a long list of "deviations from the norm "were identified and were supposed ( and promised by management) to be addressed. It went well for a while, now this BEA report shows us that the old ways are back. There is much more on this report that this fight in the cockpit. that are far more worrying from a safety point of view. And again I agree with you that perhaps a "Korean solution " is needed before AF makes the headlines again with more drastic consequences. Maybe that is also what the BEA is trying to say with this report.