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Air France crew fighting

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Air France crew fighting

Old 29th Aug 2022, 18:19
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This seems to be the BEA report mentioned:

https://www.google.co.uk/url?q=https...CUrwuzvohRqM1z

It does tell AF off for having too many stupid incidents (paraphrase) but it doesn't mention fisticuffs or a Geneva-Paris flight
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Old 29th Aug 2022, 18:27
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Originally Posted by megan View Post
Perhaps the CRM "Captain, you must listen" didn't quite get the job done.
What he actually said translated was,

"Listen very carefully I shall say this only once"
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Old 29th Aug 2022, 18:34
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
The fuel leak incident report is on the BEA website, findable with the search facility.

...
About an hour after I had read out the Flight Global report on the fuel leak incident to my wife, she called to me saying "You need to read the latest news" -- it was about the fisticuffs. There are just too many incidents.

I will not fly on Air France again. (The last time was because 'work' booked it, but that will not happen again.)
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Old 29th Aug 2022, 18:56
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Arrow

The same did happen inside a 777 cockpit of Emirates, 5 or 6 years ago (if we name AF, why not EK ?) But thanks to the very secretive way of dealing with incidents in that particular airline, nobody heard too much about it in the rest of the world. As far as I remember, it was linked to a woman story. A woman related to both of them.
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Old 30th Aug 2022, 03:27
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Has also happened in a QF cockpit in Dallas but fortunately pre-departure.
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Old 30th Aug 2022, 08:02
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Does anyone know what was the dispute about? Climb has usually not the highest workload, so I wonder what they were arguing about. Woman story and French pilots would fill the stereotype.
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Old 30th Aug 2022, 11:48
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They've already had one fatal accident because of this and really need to get a grip otherwise there will be more.​​​​​​.
Moreover, it is clear to even a casual observer that air France have been very lucky that most of their continuous string of serious incidents have averted fatalities by blind luck, the pilots abdicating responsibility; declaring "eh bien, l'avion, c'est fou".
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Old 30th Aug 2022, 11:57
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Originally Posted by Lookleft View Post
Has also happened in a QF cockpit in Dallas but fortunately pre-departure.
...and in the national airline of a small country to the north of France too I understand.
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Old 30th Aug 2022, 13:00
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AF may be overrepresented, but, those are humans stuck in the rabbit hutch, dealing with their issues, and nationally, the French are quite forward in presenting the merits of their views. There are situations that is desirable, others not so much. The whole story would be interesting. The unfortunate issue is that at the point that the matter has degraded to this extent, the whole operation has been and is continued to be compromised, and that ultimately is a responsibility for the PIC in management of the complete crew, warts n' all. Either side may start it, either side can escalate it, but the one person that has to recover the situation is the PIC. Sucks.

As to "national traits", one of the best CRM implementers I have had the pleasure to work with was from France, not a big sample lot, one of the 3 best helicopter instructors I have ever worked with was a simple french farm boy, (the other 2 chopper guys were both JSDF naval helicopter pilots). I've kicked a pilot off a flight deck in the dark past, replaced him with a F/E, the clown having decided to try a reckless trick that was not briefed, trained, called for or comprehended by the twit, and done while I was in the back of the plane, resulting in 4 injuries, including myself. Stupidity is not limited to race, language or religion.

447, while incorporating MMI factors, was at its root cause a failure of training and comprehension, and a pilot that was placed into a situation that defeated his understanding, leading to irrational but understandable inputs under a fearful existential situation. If there is a time for a tiff on the cockpit, that is one where it may have been reasonable.

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Old 30th Aug 2022, 17:14
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It's just pathetic you "guys" only underline the nationality of the pilots but not the gender and that you root a CRM incident to the supposed nationality of those involved. PPRuNe at its best !
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Old 30th Aug 2022, 20:55
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Indeed Flying Coyote, always the same good old basic French bashing coming back , which is now left on my the mods as it raises traffic (and revenue ). Was a bit different when the site was moderated by its founder, Danny , but we have to accept it is a commercial site now and endure this.,. That said, Mods, when I see posts like this one here :
Unbelievable! Oh well, thatís them definitely on my no fly list now. You would expect behavior and Professionalism like this in the Congo or such like, but a European Flag carrier?!!
It indicate clearly that the poster is not a Professional pilot and making a pure racist remark, which is not really acceptable in todays 'world.
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Old 30th Aug 2022, 21:25
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Are you trying to claim there's no causational correlation between certain nations and incident/accident rates?

If so, why does the EU ban eg DRC, Afghanistan, Nepal, Eritrean, Sierra Leone, Libyan airlines - is that racist, are their airlines just unlucky?
​​​​​​
Korean had a similarly excessive incident/accident rate with suspected cultural elements, they recognised it, and addressed it. Time for Air France to do the same... Failing that, a ban from eu skies - mustn't be racist - airline of a white Western nation must follow the same rules!...

Last edited by midnight cruiser; 30th Aug 2022 at 23:12.
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Old 31st Aug 2022, 01:32
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Originally Posted by Tartiflette Fan View Post
I don't see from my view of the French landscape/newscape that pilots are viewed any differently from the way they are in the UK i.e. nothing exceptional.
Pilots in general, no, Air France and its pilots though? I have always noticed something very different.
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Old 31st Aug 2022, 02:27
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I find this hard to believe but there is another report out there claiming an Air France crew that was waiting to takeoff with an Airbus 350 was cleared to position and then cleared for takeoff and added takeoff power only to realize that one of its engines was still shutdown... If true then this incredible even for Air France!

Unfortunately you must subscribe to read the article.

https://www.latribune.fr/entreprises...ls-928608.html

Last edited by Jet Jockey A4; 31st Aug 2022 at 02:51.
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Old 31st Aug 2022, 05:27
  #35 (permalink)  
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For those who think it only happen with a certain European Carrier

Last edited by ehwatezedoing; 31st Aug 2022 at 05:43.
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Old 31st Aug 2022, 06:49
  #36 (permalink)  

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Fairly recent. Is this what the college requirement is all about? I mean, the report is typed rather gracefully.

My home place had a fight decades ago about jumpseat priority for family members, F/O's wife against CA's girlfriend. Being the gentlemen they were, the boys fought each other on their significant other's behalf.

Minor lacerations due contact with cockpit environment, pilot AOGed and flight cancelled due lack of immediate backup. Bye bye 5 days Dubai layover.
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Old 31st Aug 2022, 07:24
  #37 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by midnight cruiser View Post
Are you trying to claim there's no causational correlation between certain nations and incident/accident rates?
........., a ban from eu skies - mustn't be racist - airline of a white Western nation must follow the same rules!...
This is not the way it works, a nation is not banned, the lack of a regulator enforcing rules is what causes the airlines of that nation to be banned. Nothing to do with its people. The French bashing here on this site is on "The French" and their supposed characteristics making them unfit in some eyes. The earlier quote of : You would expect behavior and Professionalism like this in the Congo or such like,", is indeed a racist remark whatever you look at it.

Now here we agree is that Air France needs to seriously change its culture. AF is still an airline where some senior captains can basically do whatever they want without any fear of consequences. In the aftermath of AF447 a long list of "deviations from the norm "were identified and were supposed ( and promised by management) to be addressed. It went well for a while, now this BEA report shows us that the old ways are back. There is much more on this report that this fight in the cockpit. that are far more worrying from a safety point of view. And again I agree with you that perhaps a "Korean solution " is needed before AF makes the headlines again with more drastic consequences. Maybe that is also what the BEA is trying to say with this report.
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Old 31st Aug 2022, 08:09
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Originally Posted by ehwatezedoing View Post
For those who think it only happen with a certain European Carrier
You might want to extend the de-identification to include the date/route/fleet number.
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Old 31st Aug 2022, 08:54
  #39 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
You might want to extend the de-identification to include the date/route/fleet number.
It's all free to see on social medias, I only blacked out a few things (Not enough obviously ) So I won't be banned here.
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Old 31st Aug 2022, 10:21
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Originally Posted by ATC Watcher View Post
This is not the way it works, a nation is not banned, the lack of a regulator enforcing rules is what causes the airlines of that nation to be banned. Nothing to do with its people. The French bashing here on this site is on "The French" and their supposed characteristics making them unfit in some eyes. The earlier quote of : You would expect behavior and Professionalism like this in the Congo or such like,", is indeed a racist remark whatever you look at it.

Now here we agree is that Air France needs to seriously change its culture. AF is still an airline where some senior captains can basically do whatever they want without any fear of consequences. In the aftermath of AF447 a long list of "deviations from the norm "were identified and were supposed ( and promised by management) to be addressed. It went well for a while, now this BEA report shows us that the old ways are back. There is much more on this report that this fight in the cockpit. that are far more worrying from a safety point of view. And again I agree with you that perhaps a "Korean solution " is needed before AF makes the headlines again with more drastic consequences. Maybe that is also what the BEA is trying to say with this report.
I know it is rumour at this point but I know that the BEA safety study report was sent to the press by one of the pilot union, a minor one. Why they did it ? That's the real question.
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