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Ethiopian asleep

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Ethiopian asleep

Old 23rd Aug 2022, 23:37
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I wrote some yeas about about Matthew Walker's "Why we Sleep." I had expected it to be soporific in its own right but the weighty tome was more like a thriller from cover to cover.

Walker talks of micro-sleeps, and argues that they are more dangerous than being intoxicated. Indeed, while I write this, I realised I was acquainted with two people that died due to falling asleep at the wheel and not one while intoxicated. The notion being, that while drunk, you make some sort of decision. Asleep, nothing.

Like a lot of science literature, he delves into statistics. Some sleep related issues are more serious than alcohol and illegal substances combined. (sorry, I couldn't find what I wanted since there are five separate reverences, some of them quite long.)

He has a great deal to say about sleeping tablets, especially those that give a blast and then leach out slowly 'till dawn. Then folk drive . . . or fly.

Possibly the most highly qualified man in the world (it would take me too long to type out) though the book did receive some criticism. However, I'd like to know where that came from as he's been a thorn in the side to some very big-name companies and he doesn't pull any punches. The book is still on some university library shelves in the US.


People like p7lot do exist, but they are fairly rare and I'm not so sure about their broad-spectrum abilities while they're awake. Indeed, my personal anti-sleep Colonel Blimp managed to take off on our first flight on type, having become confused about which hands work what. Tillers, lever, spectacles, or indeed, none of them. The latter came tops on his list on this bright clear day at LHR. At some stage he walked across Palma tarmac with my jacket on. It wouldn't have been so bad, but he had twice my mass and half the altitude. I thought he was simple, but dare to close one's eyes for a moment and it was 'Hauled off the chief pilot's office etc, . . ."
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Old 24th Aug 2022, 01:16
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Originally Posted by Flyangry View Post
Unlikely...ADD radar and comms are quite good. Plus I believe they have ADS-B and should have been quickly able to identify the plane wasn't descending or programmed to descend as it was supposed to by that point.
Been a while since I was in the region, but coverage was spotty anywhere far from ADD last I was, and there are many comms dead areas particularly in border regions. Probably has got worse in some areas due to conflict. ADS-B doesn't help if you don't have coverage (unless you get a satellite feed, which at ADD... let's just say I'd be surprised).
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Old 24th Aug 2022, 01:19
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Originally Posted by vilas View Post
Better scheduling, more rest before flight and less hours every week/month/year will help but till it happens some threat mitigation survival techniques need to be deviced. Fatigue should be included in briefing as a threat. Like many suggesting cabin crew periodic check, hot towel/ cold towel, more caffeine may be or when it's worse a Modafinil tablet. It's suggested to combat pilots so couldn't be a psychotropic substance. Better check it. I used it on a nine hours drive starting early morning and it did help. May be they knew all this but missed out. If not, good to start now.
Modafinil indeed does what it says on the tin but routine use could come back to bite you if anything bad happens, unless you're one of those combat pilots. I can see the Daily Mail headline now: something something Flying High...
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Old 25th Aug 2022, 01:19
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most likely
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Old 25th Aug 2022, 17:17
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Originally Posted by bobbytables View Post
Modafinil indeed does what it says on the tin but routine use could come back to bite you if anything bad happens, unless you're one of those combat pilots. I can see the Daily Mail headline now: something something Flying High...
From wikipedia:
Modafinilís side effects include severe migraine, intense fear and anxiety, excessive adrenal gland overproduction, and nausea. Serious side effects in high doses include delusions, unfounded beliefs, paranoia, irrational thought, and intense, temporary depression, possibly due to its effects on dopamine receptors in the brain, as well as allergic reactions.
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Old 25th Aug 2022, 17:50
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Originally Posted by IcePack View Post
Fatigue or sleep deprivation. A long while back my co-pilot fell asleep on base leg into Gatwick. Early morning & I had to reach over to his shoulder & shake him awake. Obviously I was PF, but not sure how much PM I got. However we landed safely. (737-300) taught me a lesson that when the human body says enough is enough it will go to sleep whatever. We are all human maybe some understanding is in order.
(co-pilot had been awake during the descent)
CHIRP had a report of both pilots falling asslep on approach at Gatwick YEARS ago. It is a simple fact that the human body cannot be reprogrammed to fit an impossible work roster
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Old 25th Aug 2022, 23:25
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Originally Posted by brak View Post
From wikipedia:
Have a look at the possible adverse effects for ibuprofen some time. Modafinil is widely prescribed off-label for ADHD as well as used by many militaries as a "go pill". Anecdotally, unpleasant side effects are fairly rare. In both types of use it's considered much more tolerable than taking stimulants all the time.
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Old 26th Aug 2022, 09:01
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Intense fear and anxiety?

That's a normal day for me in the flight deck.
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Old 26th Aug 2022, 09:10
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In both types of use it's considered much more tolerable than taking stimulants all the time.
But - at least in theory - those 'working' at the pointy end should not need stimulants ..... I'll get my coat.
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Old 27th Aug 2022, 13:02
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Originally Posted by 4runner View Post
If you read forums regarding ET employment and Ethiopian civil aviation authority, you will find a common theme. Lack of work/rest rules or flagrant violation of them, lots of flying, poor treatment by management, zero enforcement of regulations and a punitive culture and lack of oversight. The crew will be punished for this, there will be zero change in safety protocols or oversight and pilots will continue to fly above max duty regs and norms.
Sad but absolutely true
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Old 28th Aug 2022, 18:41
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If proof were needed.........

Surely now is the time for pilots and their unions to say 'come on guys; enough is enough'.

"Safety is our first priority" say the airlines................Bull

I am sure many of us have done 6-on-2-off rosters, with each day being 4 sectors or more. And those of us who have done it know that it is not a sustainable roster in terms of health: personal heath, mental health, family health, etc.

We really need to stand up for ourselves.
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Old 29th Aug 2022, 14:32
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Micro Sleep

Originally Posted by Loose rivets View Post
I wrote some yeas about about Matthew Walker's "Why we Sleep." I had expected it to be soporific in its own right but the weighty tome was more like a thriller from cover to cover.

Walker talks of micro-sleeps, and argues that they are more dangerous than being intoxicated. Indeed, while I write this, I realised I was acquainted with two people that died due to falling asleep at the wheel and not one while intoxicated. The notion being, that while drunk, you make some sort of decision. Asleep, nothing.

Like a lot of science literature, he delves into statistics. Some sleep related issues are more serious than alcohol and illegal substances combined. (sorry, I couldn't find what I wanted since there are five separate reverences, some of them quite long.)

He has a great deal to say about sleeping tablets, especially those that give a blast and then leach out slowly 'till dawn. Then folk drive . . . or fly.

Possibly the most highly qualified man in the world (it would take me too long to type out) though the book did receive some criticism. However, I'd like to know where that came from as he's been a thorn in the side to some very big-name companies and he doesn't pull any punches. The book is still on some university library shelves in the US.


People like p7lot do exist, but they are fairly rare and I'm not so sure about their broad-spectrum abilities while they're awake. Indeed, my personal anti-sleep Colonel Blimp managed to take off on our first flight on type, having become confused about which hands work what. Tillers, lever, spectacles, or indeed, none of them. The latter came tops on his list on this bright clear day at LHR. At some stage he walked across Palma tarmac with my jacket on. It wouldn't have been so bad, but he had twice my mass and half the altitude. I thought he was simple, but dare to close one's eyes for a moment and it was 'Hauled off the chief pilot's office etc, . . ."

Thank you , I got the book and it truly is eye opening, especially the chapter on Micro - Sleep.
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Old 31st Aug 2022, 11:58
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Modafinil indeed does what it says on the tin but routine use could come back to bite you if anything bad happens,
I didn't mention it as a happy option. Since it doesn't look that FTL, Duty time is being changed in a hurry What are the options for survival? Go to sleep and may be never get up? Or may be half asleep and land with disastrous consequences. Or occasionally when it gets real bad use a crutch to ride over the moment? It can happen even when proper rest was given but you couldn't rest.
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Old 31st Aug 2022, 15:53
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Originally Posted by vilas View Post
I didn't mention it as a happy option. Since it doesn't look that FTL, Duty time is being changed in a hurry What are the options for survival? Go to sleep and may be never get up? Or may be half asleep and land with disastrous consequences. Or occasionally when it gets real bad use a crutch to ride over the moment? It can happen even when proper rest was given but you couldn't rest.
Any civilized airline allows their crew to refuse a duty without any repercussions if they are tired or fatigued, no matter if it was due to a bad roster or the neighbors keeping you awake with a party.
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Old 31st Aug 2022, 23:41
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Originally Posted by Denti View Post
Any civilized airline allows their crew to refuse a duty without any repercussions if they are tired or fatigued, no matter if it was due to a bad roster or the neighbors keeping you awake with a party.
FR or WZ too?
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Old 3rd Sep 2022, 10:40
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ThE crew will be punished and no changes will be made. Welcome to aviation outside of Europe and the US and to a government airline. Ethiopian has a long history of poor treatment of its crews. Look at the African aviation forum under ET and youíll see a lot of posts regarding flagrant violations of rest rules and regs.
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Old 3rd Sep 2022, 16:25
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Originally Posted by Consol View Post
FR or WZ too?
He said civilized... That answers your question, I think..
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Old 7th Sep 2022, 08:18
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Originally Posted by Denti View Post
Any civilized airline allows their crew to refuse a duty without any repercussions if they are tired or fatigued, no matter if it was due to a bad roster or the neighbors keeping you awake with a party.
is Qatar one of those civilized airlines?

https://www-aerotime-aero.cdn.amppro...-culture?v=amp
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Old 17th Oct 2022, 09:24
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The only reason for longer crew duty times is for the airline to reduce staff costs:

Instead of 7 or 8 crews per airframe, they might be able to operate with 5 crews per airframe - if they can get the crews to work longer duties.

Why do they want to reduce staff costs? so they can offer cheaper seat prices.

That works until the longer duties start to impinge upon crew health, and crew work-life balance. Many junior aircrew put up with less than ideal - and even downright poor - contract and operating conditions in the hope that they will one day move on to better things. The senior crew generally have much better conditions and work-life balance - part time or cushy rosters for example - which they can do and still earn enough money to support their lifestyle.

So we get junior staff working ridiculous hours and not complaining, and senior staff working better hours, and also not complaining. So nothing changes.

High time for crews to take a stand. Crews - senior as well as junior - need to say enough is enough and curb the airlines back towards more realistic rostering.
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Old 18th Oct 2022, 16:14
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It's happened again...

https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/3...mpaign=organic

All I don't understand is why no journalist starts tying up all the snippets of news from ET, and starts exposing them. As others have pointed out on this thread, ET always gives the standard response about "safety being its primary concern". I know someone "really well" who used to work for them, and several others who still do, and everyone knows that maximising profit is the ONLY concern at ET. "Yes captain, I know it's illegal, but..." is a line their ops staff use reguarly. FOs (all locals, and many of whom describe themselves as "slaves") with no rites at all, flying 140 hours per month (this is across all fleets). If they turn down any duty, it's straight into the DFOs office, and promotion will be delayed. Total disregard for limits. Policies are to be followed until following them might incur a reduction in profits, and then it's expected that all staff will go outside of policy; "dispensations" are always given. The only way they're not crashing more hulls is because they keep using the newest models on the market. Pilot training is rough to say the least - it's more important to turn up with an ironed shirt than to know how to fly competently. Briefings are still 1960s style. Cockpit discipline is non-existent - one captain strolled out of the flight deck duriing the climb, leaving the inexperienced FO alone... and he made a level bust. The problem is, the media doesn't do enough research to know how to expose them. In the meantime, they will continue to lose hulls (and blame the manufacturers) and kill more inncoent people every few years.
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