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WIZZ AIR Skiathos vid

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WIZZ AIR Skiathos vid

Old 11th Aug 2022, 11:33
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For those that havenít seen it, here it is.

Note the total lack of any approach guidance.
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Old 11th Aug 2022, 11:34
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And another one a bit further out.
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Old 11th Aug 2022, 11:36
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What kind of parachute is an A321 equipped with? The 737-800 cannot go in there with a full load of tourists on a hot summer day. I bet their landing performance gave a whopping 3 m margin or something. It may be legal, but if you can gain another 200 m stopping distance in the beginning of the runway that might actually be considered a good thing (not showboating, incompetence).

People shouldn't be where they were! Wasn't their a woman killed in St. Maarten a few years ago because of jet blast!?
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Old 11th Aug 2022, 11:46
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Italian biscotti

As a side note I think it will be biscotti and espresso too as all Wizzair flights to Skiathos appear to originate from the (relatively new) Italian bases.

I think JSI flights commenced in June, Equally
BA City flyer only started these leisure flights at weekends this year?

Not sure what was so reckless about it anyway, they got low - looks like the descent was arrested, didnít hit anything and touched down safely. If you were to remove the fact that there happens to be a road (and a bar) and a load of folk standing essentially at the end of the tarmac (which could of been a factor when deciding not to go TOGA at the point it was felt low) would this not be a non event at any other runway? I imagine say at Luton this final phase of the approach deviates 10ís of feet up or down when visual at all runways? Itís of course just antenna and lighting and fields in the vicinityÖÖ

Could we actually be seeing a bit of decent airmanship perhaps? - you get to decision altitude youíre a little low and thereís loads of people amassed right in front of you, if you gas on and abort they are about to be hit with 50,000lb of hot thrust and blown off over rocks in to the bay and could be killed or seriously injured so you round it out, declare
continue, arrest the descent - stay low and get featured on YouTube and PPRuNe!

Matt
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Old 11th Aug 2022, 11:46
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Do we remember this one? The Wizzair is low, but this AirItaly and the previous BA embrear seem to be even lower. Especially the BA seem to have a significant underspeed too. While the Embrear would not have a huge problem with these shorter runways.


It is easy to blame Wizz, but it is a tricky airport especially with larger and heavier aircraft like the A321.
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Old 11th Aug 2022, 11:49
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A321 neo 78t Flap Full, Med autobrake , sea level and ISA landing distance required is 1390m. Add on another 75m for a typical sunny day (30c).
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Old 11th Aug 2022, 12:00
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Originally Posted by 172_driver View Post
People shouldn't be where they were! Wasn't their a woman killed in St. Maarten a few years ago because of jet blast!?
There have indeed been injuries at Skiathos as a result of jet blast from a departing aircraft.

Should there be a fatality or serious injury as a result of someone being struck by a landing aircraft, that would fall within the scope of Annex 13 and thereby necessitate an ICAO-compliant accident investigation. Maybe that's what it needs in order for anything to change.
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Old 11th Aug 2022, 12:01
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Originally Posted by tubby linton View Post
A321 neo 78t Flap Full, Med autobrake , sea level and ISA landing distance required is 1390m. Add on another 75m for a typical sunny day (30c).
Useable length from the 02 threshold is 1570m (according to jeps)

Not much room for error. And error is a 200ft cliff.

And for a standard A321 (CEO) itís 1480m +100m for a standard Greek temperature day.
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Old 11th Aug 2022, 12:06
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OK, let's take off our pilot's hats and put on the legal ones.

Scenario 1
Crew fly deliberately low in an attempt to reduce the landing distance. Unexpected late downdraft and aircraft lands short of runway resulting in an evacuation.

Scenario 2
Crew fly correct flight path and experience an unexpected downdraft over the threshold resulting in a hard landing.

Regardless of airmanship considerations the blame in scenario 1 would probably result in loss of job and possibly legal action against the crew. Scenario 2 would involve some paperwork filing.

Sorry guys but SOPs are there to be adhered to and will save your bacon if you do.

Last edited by Confusious; 11th Aug 2022 at 14:10.
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Old 11th Aug 2022, 12:10
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Originally Posted by Jonty View Post
Useable length from the 02 threshold is 1570m (according to jeps)

Not much room for error. And error is a 200ft cliff.
and if you look at say the Runway at Gatwick and compare, youíve got a road and members of the public
somewhere just before the zebra crossing markings across the tarmacÖ..at JSI a road and spotters in the runway object free zone, a popular bar & car park in the controlled
activity area and moored boats with masts in the RPZ.
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Old 11th Aug 2022, 12:16
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Originally Posted by Confusious View Post
OK, let's take off our pilot's hats and put on the legal ones.

Scenario 1
Crew fly deliberately low in an attempt to reduce the landing distance. Unexpected late downdraft and aircraft lands short of runway resulting in an evaluation.

Scenario 2
Crew fly correct flight path and experience an unexpected downdraft over the threshold resulting in a hard landing.

Regardless of airmanship considerations the blame in scenario 1 would probably result in loss of job and possibly legal action against the crew. Scenario 2 would involve some paperwork filing.

Sorry guys but SOPs are there to be adhered to and will save your bacon if you do.
And scenario 3 involves an unexpected tail wind on very short final meaning the aircraft now goes off the end with the loss of all onboard. And donít even get me started on a loss of braking ecam on roll out.

JSI is a very ďinterestingĒ airport to land at. Itís stretching the limits of what some aircraft are capable of.

Iím not going to criticise the Wizz crew in this instance, I wasnít flying it. And I know the majority of Wizz pilots are very capable and well
trained individuals.

What I will criticise are ďarm chair pilotsĒ who havenít flown these aircraft in to this airport and feel itís right to criticise the crew for what appears to be a low approach.
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Old 11th Aug 2022, 12:24
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As a plain ordinary passenegr I had a couple of comments
1 On the vdieo is it an illusion or does the aircraft seem to check descent a short distance from the road ?

2 Surely the Greek authorites have some responsibility here. Space is title so they cannot move the threshold or extend the runway but there cannot be that many ops into Skianthos in a day that would make it impossible to either put up traffic signals for the road and have a cop or two to enforce spectator safety limits back behind a safe line.

I have loved watching aircraft all my life but having a massive steel and rubber landing gear a few feet over my head seems just insanely silly when I can geta better view just by standing 30 odd metres back from the centre line.
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Old 11th Aug 2022, 12:27
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Originally Posted by Jonty View Post
Useable length from the 02 threshold is 1570m (according to jeps)

Not much room for error. And error is a 200ft cliff.

And for a standard A321 (CEO) itís 1480m +100m for a standard Greek temperature day.
Did you also add a correction for the standard 5kt approach correction over Vls? That adds 100m to my figures listed above to give 1565m
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Old 11th Aug 2022, 12:36
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Originally Posted by Jonty View Post
And scenario 3 involves an unexpected tail wind on very short final meaning the aircraft now goes off the end with the loss of all onboard. And donít even get me started on a loss of braking ecam on roll out.

JSI is a very ďinterestingĒ airport to land at. Itís stretching the limits of what some aircraft are capable of.

Iím not going to criticise the Wizz crew in this instance, I wasnít flying it. And I know the majority of Wizz pilots are very capable and well
trained individuals.

What I will criticise are ďarm chair pilotsĒ who havenít flown these aircraft in to this airport and feel itís right to criticise the crew for what appears to be a low approach.
You forgot Scenario 4. Pilot ignores PAPI's and deliberately descends below profile. Unexpected downdraft on short final results in main gear passing through Armco barrier.
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Old 11th Aug 2022, 12:38
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Originally Posted by Jonty View Post
And scenario 3 involves an unexpected tail wind on very short final meaning the aircraft now goes off the end with the loss of all onboard. And donít even get me started on a loss of braking ecam on roll out.

JSI is a very ďinterestingĒ airport to land at. Itís stretching the limits of what some aircraft are capable of.

Iím not going to criticise the Wizz crew in this instance, I wasnít flying it. And I know the majority of Wizz pilots are very capable and well
trained individuals.

What I will criticise are ďarm chair pilotsĒ who havenít flown these aircraft in to this airport and feel itís right to criticise the crew for what appears to be a low approach.
I'm not an armchair pilot, been there and done it.

Scenario 3 would of course be very unfortunate, but again I say if you were at correct speeds and profile then your conscience would be clear. TBF though it would have to be massive swing in wind direction to add 200m+ to the landing distance.

Let's just agree to disagree Jonty as we're all entitled to our opinions. I hope that deliberately flying high/low/fast/slow doesn't one day come back to bite you.

At the end of the day flight safety is the priority to all of us here.

Safe flying!
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Old 11th Aug 2022, 12:46
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Originally Posted by Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP View Post
You forgot Scenario 4. Pilot ignores PAPI's and deliberately descends below profile. Unexpected downdraft on short final results in main gear passing through Armco barrier.
That was scenario 1. And at least you will be attending the subsequent board of enquiry.
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Old 11th Aug 2022, 12:51
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I must admit, I used to say to the passengers that it may be a bit like a carrier landing. Our -800s could land there legally with 189 pax, it was back in the 90s though has anything changed?
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Old 11th Aug 2022, 12:57
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Jonty. I'll stick to flying things as I was trained to do so. It's served me well for 35 years and allowed me to train other pilots into challenging airfields, JSI included. If you choose to defend this type of flying then that's up to you. Maybe you would also advocate adopting this technique onto a contaminated runway? It might just save you from going off the end....


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Old 11th Aug 2022, 13:10
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Hands up anyone who would do this in the sim.
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Old 11th Aug 2022, 13:23
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My view from the armchair is that given the available length, the size of the aircraft and the 200ft cliff at the end, one cannot blame the pilots for wanting to get down early.

The problem is that it creates far more likelihood of approaches like this one versus an airport where a bit of a float is not a problem. It begs the question of whether aircraft of this size should be operating into a place like this, even if the theory says they can.
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