WIZZ AIR Skiathos vid
Drain Bamaged
Originally Posted by compressor stall
Interestingly the runway is pixellated on the last Google Earth images. Older ones still ok.
But not yet on things like Flightradar24
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Skiathos is not an easy airport. 02 is short, narrow, uphill, with a cliff at the far end down to the beach. Having flown in there myself, and seen many others, the approach and landing in the video is fairly standard.
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Airbus Callouts
I wonder how many times the bus called out “RETARD” and from how far out.
Skiathos is well known for landings like this and lots of people travel there to see them. The wiser ones usually standing off to the side. AFAIK it is a “Captains only” landing.
out of interest if the given QNH is out by perhaps one h/pa and a “3 degree” approach is initiated from 2000, how far up or down would that likely deviate you at the TDZ. +/- 10ft?
Matt
Skiathos is well known for landings like this and lots of people travel there to see them. The wiser ones usually standing off to the side. AFAIK it is a “Captains only” landing.
out of interest if the given QNH is out by perhaps one h/pa and a “3 degree” approach is initiated from 2000, how far up or down would that likely deviate you at the TDZ. +/- 10ft?
Matt
Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
The FR24 track indicates that, notwithstanding the low height over the fence, the approach from 2000' was flown at 3°.
(informational post only, no judgement implied)
(informational post only, no judgement implied)
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Originally Posted by dr dre
I agree. Skiathos 02 LDA is 1570m. That's not much room in an A321 with over 240 people behind you. There's plenty of flight deck videos on YouTube of 737/320's from a variety of different operators approaching onto 02, the common factor is the aiming point and touchdown point seems to be well short of the 500' marks. Sometimes it's between them and the piano keys. Enough so that I'd say it's probably an SOP to have a short aiming point on this runway. In this case the main gear touchdown looks to be right at the start of the piano keys, well short for a normal runway but only marginally short for this one. Don't want to overrun, there's a steep drop off beyond the opposite threshold.
It isn't the fault of pilots that airlines are wanting them to fly bigger and faster aircraft onto runways originally built for much smaller aircraft. If anything the road in front of the threshold should be blocked off and an extension to the bitumen made all the way to the water. Maybe a boom gate system to stop traffic passing, or block off the road entirely? No pedestrians or spotters at all, it only takes a slightly low approach and a bit of thrust out the back for a serious injury.
It isn't the fault of pilots that airlines are wanting them to fly bigger and faster aircraft onto runways originally built for much smaller aircraft. If anything the road in front of the threshold should be blocked off and an extension to the bitumen made all the way to the water. Maybe a boom gate system to stop traffic passing, or block off the road entirely? No pedestrians or spotters at all, it only takes a slightly low approach and a bit of thrust out the back for a serious injury.
Last edited by Direct BAMES; 11th Aug 2022 at 09:27.
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Originally Posted by Jonty
Skiathos is not an easy airport. 02 is short, narrow, uphill, with a cliff at the far end down to the beach. Having flown in there myself, and seen many others, the approach and landing in the video is fairly standard.
Having visited Skiathos many times for a well known (but now defunct) A321 operator I totally disagree. It is easy enough to stop on 02 in the A321 if you cross the threshold at 50' and don't delay touching down. Runway 20 is more challenging as it is downhill.
This approach would have been abandoned at any other destination. WTF was the PM doing? He/she was certainly not monitoring the trajectory. More likely complicit in the whole thing. There has never been a need to operate like this in JSI in an A321. The crew deserve to be shown the door for endangering an aircraft and its occupants. Sooner or later somebody will lose their life as a result of idiots showboating there.
If you want to fly like this, hire something on your days off. The paying punter does not deserve to be put at risk for someone's ego trip.
Last edited by Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP; 11th Aug 2022 at 08:57.
Originally Posted by Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP
Having visited Skiathos many times for a well known (but now defunct) A321 operator I totally disagree. It is easy enough to stop on 02 in the A321 if you cross the threshold at 50' and don't delay touching down. Runway 20 is more challenging as it is downhill.
This approach would have been abandoned at any other destination. WTF was the PM doing? He/she was certainly not monitoring the trajectory. More likely complicit in the whole thing. There has never been a need to operate like this in JSI in an A321. The crew deserve to be shown the door for endangering an aircraft and its occupants. Sooner or later somebody will lose their life as a result of idiots showboating there.
If you want to fly like this, hire something on your days off. The paying punter does not deserve to be put at risk for someone's ego trip.
This approach would have been abandoned at any other destination. WTF was the PM doing? He/she was certainly not monitoring the trajectory. More likely complicit in the whole thing. There has never been a need to operate like this in JSI in an A321. The crew deserve to be shown the door for endangering an aircraft and its occupants. Sooner or later somebody will lose their life as a result of idiots showboating there.
If you want to fly like this, hire something on your days off. The paying punter does not deserve to be put at risk for someone's ego trip.
Obviously, we'll never know but I don't think that it was showboating as that would have involved both pilots to agree it in advance, hence no go around call from PNF.
To all those who think that this is acceptable, would said crew ever stop after V1 for a fire? And ask yourself would you? The answer is hopefully no because that's how you have been trained.
And any doubters as to whether this was very low, why has it drawn so much media attention?
Only half a speed-brake
Hope the scolding is equally aimed at the BA liveried crew from the video posted upthread.
The rest is agreed, apart from the showboating part. My guess is insufficient competence where high competence is required.
A321 standard landing geometry (following a 50' RDH calibrated 3 deg GP) will provide 31' landing gear clearance when crossing the threshold.
Landing distance and braking performance rules only allow dispatching for a runway where 67% margin is available over the numbers for manual maximum braking effort from a standard landing profile.
Safety on limiting runways is achieved by learning the acceptable touchdown spot (which is by far not 1000 m or 1/3 runway) and going around if the landing gets deep.
Safety levels assured or markedly improved by using any specific short landing technique are wholly unacceptable.
If you wish to land nearer the threshold anyways, pick a closer aiming point and do some magic to shorten the flare phase from a standard approach angle. Going more shallow is geometrical and energetic nonsense even if it makes the pilot feel good.
Those are facts. Human factors go on top and always shift the picture. To avoid straying too far the underlying theoretical knowledge needs to be accurate.
The rest is agreed, apart from the showboating part. My guess is insufficient competence where high competence is required.
A321 standard landing geometry (following a 50' RDH calibrated 3 deg GP) will provide 31' landing gear clearance when crossing the threshold.
Landing distance and braking performance rules only allow dispatching for a runway where 67% margin is available over the numbers for manual maximum braking effort from a standard landing profile.
Safety on limiting runways is achieved by learning the acceptable touchdown spot (which is by far not 1000 m or 1/3 runway) and going around if the landing gets deep.
Safety levels assured or markedly improved by using any specific short landing technique are wholly unacceptable.
If you wish to land nearer the threshold anyways, pick a closer aiming point and do some magic to shorten the flare phase from a standard approach angle. Going more shallow is geometrical and energetic nonsense even if it makes the pilot feel good.
Those are facts. Human factors go on top and always shift the picture. To avoid straying too far the underlying theoretical knowledge needs to be accurate.
Last edited by FlightDetent; 11th Aug 2022 at 09:52.
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Originally Posted by Coachcpt
out of interest if the given QNH is out by perhaps one h/pa and a “3 degree” approach is initiated from 2000, how far up or down would that likely deviate you at the TDZ. +/- 10ft?
Matt
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Originally Posted by Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP
Having visited Skiathos many times for a well known (but now defunct) A321 operator I totally disagree. It is easy enough to stop on 02 in the A321 if you cross the threshold at 50' and don't delay touching down. Runway 20 is more challenging as it is downhill.
This approach would have been abandoned at any other destination. WTF was the PM doing? He/she was certainly not monitoring the trajectory. More likely complicit in the whole thing. There has never been a need to operate like this in JSI in an A321. The crew deserve to be shown the door for endangering an aircraft and its occupants. Sooner or later somebody will lose their life as a result of idiots showboating there.
If you want to fly like this, hire something on your days off. The paying punter does not deserve to be put at risk for someone's ego trip.
This approach would have been abandoned at any other destination. WTF was the PM doing? He/she was certainly not monitoring the trajectory. More likely complicit in the whole thing. There has never been a need to operate like this in JSI in an A321. The crew deserve to be shown the door for endangering an aircraft and its occupants. Sooner or later somebody will lose their life as a result of idiots showboating there.
If you want to fly like this, hire something on your days off. The paying punter does not deserve to be put at risk for someone's ego trip.
For those saying if it meets the landing distance calculations it’s fine. I’m my experience it does not meet the dispatch criteria, but does meet the in-flight criteria. The “now defunct” operator I used to fly in here with had dispensation to operate in this way.
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Originally Posted by Jonty
if you have flown in here with a now defunct A321 operator (wonder which one!) then you will know full well you’re talking rubbish. And will have done exactly what this crew did yourself. So you either had your eyes shut or enjoy making out you’re something you’re not.
For those saying if it meets the landing distance calculations it’s fine. I’m my experience it does not meet the dispatch criteria, but does meet the in-flight criteria. The “now defunct” operator I used to fly in here with had dispensation to operate in this way.
For those saying if it meets the landing distance calculations it’s fine. I’m my experience it does not meet the dispatch criteria, but does meet the in-flight criteria. The “now defunct” operator I used to fly in here with had dispensation to operate in this way.
Originally Posted by dirk85
The pilots in question have been called for tea and biscuits, and will be subject to investigation
Hope the scolding is equally aimed at the BA liveried crew from the video posted upthread.
To some extent the BA one is worse because they are all LCY trained where they normally do every other landing, so adherance to profiles/touchdown points should be even more instinctive.
Only half a speed-brake
Originally Posted by Jonty
it does not meet the dispatch criteria, but does meet the in-flight criteria. The “now defunct” operator I used to fly in here with had dispensation to operate in this way.
Obviously a perf. limiting LW to meet the standard criteria is a different animal from having a waiver from them.
Could I keep my self from aiming 2/3 of the distance geometrically correct for 3/50? Thank you for not asking.
(the result would be 220 mtrs past threshold + flare and 22' tail clearance over the threshold line).
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Originally Posted by Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP
Then we clearly worked for different operators. The UK CAA would never allow a "dispensation" for an airline to operate an aircraft in this manner. I've never operated an aircraft like this and I've never worked for a company that would expect its pilots to do so. If you think that's rubbish then that's your choice.
Only half a speed-brake
Originally Posted by Jonty
Don’t kid yourself Mr Hacker, there won’t have been even one occasion where you will have hit 50ft over the numbers. But keep telling yourself otherwise if it makes you feel better.
+ when pilot is over the numbers
+ the gear is crossing the threshold
= the RA which pilots reference is 31. Auto-call is THIRTY.
Flying to PAPI commonly located at 400 or 450 mtrs past threshold will result in a higher profile that gives the pilot the wrongly desired FIFTY auto-call over the numbers.
Assuming at his ILS home base he flies aligned with the instruments down to 100 feet, going for the big-airplane forward PAPIs will result in 2° profile. If that gets ingrained...
... it a sign of a healthy gut that being 20' (+66%) higher than required with a 2 deg profile feels wrong on a runway like the one discussed.
Some people would push halfway down (because there is actual room) and feel they turned the odds. Some people just arrive on the correct profile to begin with and the crossing height is the same.
These guys got it wrong. I suppose because of not having a clear and defined plan, rendering the PM pretty much powerless. Truth be told, there were still margins from something requiring an official investigation.
Last edited by FlightDetent; 11th Aug 2022 at 10:37.
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Sometimes things go wrong; so we will be able to know when they go right
Extract from a discussion in another safety forum:-
-/-
“Sometimes things go wrong; so we will be able to know when they go right.”
But to know requires understanding; learning, recall and application of understanding.
Avoid the self satisfying individual focus - blame, a subconscious ‘I could do better’; we were not there, we do not have the complete picture.
Beware ‘fancy’ videos, they frame situations from a narrow viewpoint, enhancing armchair analysis.
Whereas the view from the flight deck is much more relevant; also the context of the situation. Look at the airport map, facilities, geography, any unique wether effects, sea-land interface, thermals, …
Yes an after landing chat, first with self, then crew; and tea (with rich tea biscuits) enabling the many lessons in this event to be exposed. Then learn, consider how and when this learning might be applied.
Human performance is variable - that’s normal, but what bounds normal. Is this defined by hindsight, or considered by inspired foresight. What’s the frequency, distribution of this variability; again context, circumstance, understanding.
Learn before comparing; move away the narrow, mentally distorting view of a camera.
-/-
The interest from the preceding posts is that with two or more examples then the focus on individual pilots diminishes; suggesting more operator, industry wide influence in these operations.
Get out of the armchair, leave the camera behind, think about the view from the flight deck.
-/-
“Sometimes things go wrong; so we will be able to know when they go right.”
But to know requires understanding; learning, recall and application of understanding.
Avoid the self satisfying individual focus - blame, a subconscious ‘I could do better’; we were not there, we do not have the complete picture.
Beware ‘fancy’ videos, they frame situations from a narrow viewpoint, enhancing armchair analysis.
Whereas the view from the flight deck is much more relevant; also the context of the situation. Look at the airport map, facilities, geography, any unique wether effects, sea-land interface, thermals, …
Yes an after landing chat, first with self, then crew; and tea (with rich tea biscuits) enabling the many lessons in this event to be exposed. Then learn, consider how and when this learning might be applied.
Human performance is variable - that’s normal, but what bounds normal. Is this defined by hindsight, or considered by inspired foresight. What’s the frequency, distribution of this variability; again context, circumstance, understanding.
Learn before comparing; move away the narrow, mentally distorting view of a camera.
-/-
The interest from the preceding posts is that with two or more examples then the focus on individual pilots diminishes; suggesting more operator, industry wide influence in these operations.
Get out of the armchair, leave the camera behind, think about the view from the flight deck.
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Originally Posted by Contact Approach
This is irrelevant as you're visual.
there’s all sorts of funny things that seem to happen at LGSK - there’s an interesting one of a TUI 757 using reverse thrust to reverse back to the taxiway to turn off the runway. I’m sure it was an accident of course.
WTF!! Boeing 757 using the REVERSE GEAR - Skiathos Airport is the one to search on the tube for that. (I can’t watch the links) - it’s quite the watch lol!
Matt
