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WIZZ AIR Skiathos vid

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WIZZ AIR Skiathos vid

Old 11th Aug 2022, 04:52
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I can see only the spectators on the wrong spot in that picture. That is not even allowed on a glider and light aircraft airport here for good reason.
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Old 11th Aug 2022, 04:55
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Originally Posted by compressor stall View Post

Interestingly the runway is pixellated on the last Google Earth images. Older ones still ok.
Greek government’s paranoia (Probably against the Turk) They had every military base or airport that could be used by them blanked out on Google Earth.

But not yet on things like Flightradar24
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Old 11th Aug 2022, 06:28
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Skiathos is not an easy airport. 02 is short, narrow, uphill, with a cliff at the far end down to the beach. Having flown in there myself, and seen many others, the approach and landing in the video is fairly standard.

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Old 11th Aug 2022, 07:24
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Airbus Callouts

I wonder how many times the bus called out “RETARD” and from how far out.

Skiathos is well known for landings like this and lots of people travel there to see them. The wiser ones usually standing off to the side. AFAIK it is a “Captains only” landing.

out of interest if the given QNH is out by perhaps one h/pa and a “3 degree” approach is initiated from 2000, how far up or down would that likely deviate you at the TDZ. +/- 10ft?

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Old 11th Aug 2022, 07:26
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
The FR24 track indicates that, notwithstanding the low height over the fence, the approach from 2000' was flown at 3°.

(informational post only, no judgement implied)
was that Fahrenheit or Centigrade, certainly was nowhere near a normal approach
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Old 11th Aug 2022, 07:49
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
I agree. Skiathos 02 LDA is 1570m. That's not much room in an A321 with over 240 people behind you. There's plenty of flight deck videos on YouTube of 737/320's from a variety of different operators approaching onto 02, the common factor is the aiming point and touchdown point seems to be well short of the 500' marks. Sometimes it's between them and the piano keys. Enough so that I'd say it's probably an SOP to have a short aiming point on this runway. In this case the main gear touchdown looks to be right at the start of the piano keys, well short for a normal runway but only marginally short for this one. Don't want to overrun, there's a steep drop off beyond the opposite threshold.

It isn't the fault of pilots that airlines are wanting them to fly bigger and faster aircraft onto runways originally built for much smaller aircraft. If anything the road in front of the threshold should be blocked off and an extension to the bitumen made all the way to the water. Maybe a boom gate system to stop traffic passing, or block off the road entirely? No pedestrians or spotters at all, it only takes a slightly low approach and a bit of thrust out the back for a serious injury.
If the aircraft’s normally conservative performance computation says it’ll stop in the distance available (using conventional approach techniques), then it’ll stop in the distance available without having to resort to unconventional techniques. If the performance computation says the aircraft won’t stop in the distance available (using conventional approach techniques) then it has no business being there.

Last edited by Direct BAMES; 11th Aug 2022 at 09:27.
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Old 11th Aug 2022, 08:29
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Originally Posted by Jonty View Post
Skiathos is not an easy airport. 02 is short, narrow, uphill, with a cliff at the far end down to the beach. Having flown in there myself, and seen many others, the approach and landing in the video is fairly standard.

Having visited Skiathos many times for a well known (but now defunct) A321 operator I totally disagree. It is easy enough to stop on 02 in the A321 if you cross the threshold at 50' and don't delay touching down. Runway 20 is more challenging as it is downhill.


This approach would have been abandoned at any other destination. WTF was the PM doing? He/she was certainly not monitoring the trajectory. More likely complicit in the whole thing. There has never been a need to operate like this in JSI in an A321. The crew deserve to be shown the door for endangering an aircraft and its occupants. Sooner or later somebody will lose their life as a result of idiots showboating there.


If you want to fly like this, hire something on your days off. The paying punter does not deserve to be put at risk for someone's ego trip.

Last edited by Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP; 11th Aug 2022 at 08:57.
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Old 11th Aug 2022, 09:25
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Originally Posted by Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP View Post
Having visited Skiathos many times for a well known (but now defunct) A321 operator I totally disagree. It is easy enough to stop on 02 in the A321 if you cross the threshold at 50' and don't delay touching down. Runway 20 is more challenging as it is downhill.


This approach would have been abandoned at any other destination. WTF was the PM doing? He/she was certainly not monitoring the trajectory. More likely complicit in the whole thing. There has never been a need to operate like this in JSI in an A321. The crew deserve to be shown the door for endangering an aircraft and its occupants. Sooner or later somebody will lose their life as a result of idiots showboating there.


If you want to fly like this, hire something on your days off. The paying punter does not deserve to be put at risk for someone's ego trip.
Totally agree. Not just what was the PF doing, but what about PNF?

Obviously, we'll never know but I don't think that it was showboating as that would have involved both pilots to agree it in advance, hence no go around call from PNF.

To all those who think that this is acceptable, would said crew ever stop after V1 for a fire? And ask yourself would you? The answer is hopefully no because that's how you have been trained.

And any doubters as to whether this was very low, why has it drawn so much media attention?
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Old 11th Aug 2022, 09:37
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Hope the scolding is equally aimed at the BA liveried crew from the video posted upthread.

The rest is agreed, apart from the showboating part. My guess is insufficient competence where high competence is required.

A321 standard landing geometry (following a 50' RDH calibrated 3 deg GP) will provide 31' landing gear clearance when crossing the threshold.

Landing distance and braking performance rules only allow dispatching for a runway where 67% margin is available over the numbers for manual maximum braking effort from a standard landing profile.

Safety on limiting runways is achieved by learning the acceptable touchdown spot (which is by far not 1000 m or 1/3 runway) and going around if the landing gets deep.
​​​
Safety levels assured or markedly improved by using any specific short landing technique are wholly unacceptable.

If you wish to land nearer the threshold anyways, pick a closer aiming point and do some magic to shorten the flare phase from a standard approach angle. Going more shallow is geometrical and energetic nonsense even if it makes the pilot feel good.

Those are facts. Human factors go on top and always shift the picture. To avoid straying too far the underlying theoretical knowledge needs to be accurate.


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Last edited by FlightDetent; 11th Aug 2022 at 09:52.
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Old 11th Aug 2022, 09:37
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Originally Posted by Coachcpt View Post

out of interest if the given QNH is out by perhaps one h/pa and a “3 degree” approach is initiated from 2000, how far up or down would that likely deviate you at the TDZ. +/- 10ft?

Matt
This is irrelevant as you're visual.
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Old 11th Aug 2022, 09:38
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Originally Posted by Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP View Post
Having visited Skiathos many times for a well known (but now defunct) A321 operator I totally disagree. It is easy enough to stop on 02 in the A321 if you cross the threshold at 50' and don't delay touching down. Runway 20 is more challenging as it is downhill.


This approach would have been abandoned at any other destination. WTF was the PM doing? He/she was certainly not monitoring the trajectory. More likely complicit in the whole thing. There has never been a need to operate like this in JSI in an A321. The crew deserve to be shown the door for endangering an aircraft and its occupants. Sooner or later somebody will lose their life as a result of idiots showboating there.


If you want to fly like this, hire something on your days off. The paying punter does not deserve to be put at risk for someone's ego trip.
if you have flown in here with a now defunct A321 operator (wonder which one!) then you will know full well you’re talking rubbish. And will have done exactly what this crew did yourself. So you either had your eyes shut or enjoy making out you’re something you’re not.

For those saying if it meets the landing distance calculations it’s fine. I’m my experience it does not meet the dispatch criteria, but does meet the in-flight criteria. The “now defunct” operator I used to fly in here with had dispensation to operate in this way.
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Old 11th Aug 2022, 09:39
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The pilots in question have been called for tea and biscuits, and will be subject to investigation
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Old 11th Aug 2022, 09:51
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Originally Posted by Jonty View Post
if you have flown in here with a now defunct A321 operator (wonder which one!) then you will know full well you’re talking rubbish. And will have done exactly what this crew did yourself. So you either had your eyes shut or enjoy making out you’re something you’re not.

For those saying if it meets the landing distance calculations it’s fine. I’m my experience it does not meet the dispatch criteria, but does meet the in-flight criteria. The “now defunct” operator I used to fly in here with had dispensation to operate in this way.
Then we clearly worked for different operators. The UK CAA would never allow a "dispensation" for an airline to operate an aircraft in this manner. I've never operated an aircraft like this and I've never worked for a company that would expect its pilots to do so. If you think that's rubbish then that's your choice.
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Old 11th Aug 2022, 09:55
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Originally Posted by dirk85 View Post
The pilots in question have been called for tea and biscuits, and will be subject to investigation
Sensibly, this should involve a session in the sim and no more.

Hope the scolding is equally aimed at the BA liveried crew from the video posted upthread.
To some extent the BA one is worse because they are all LCY trained where they normally do every other landing, so adherance to profiles/touchdown points should be even more instinctive.
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Old 11th Aug 2022, 10:05
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Originally Posted by Jonty View Post
it does not meet the dispatch criteria, but does meet the in-flight criteria. The “now defunct” operator I used to fly in here with had dispensation to operate in this way.
My memory only has shadows of the A320 numbers and seeing A321 made me check the books. Full MLW is a no go, don't have the means calculate the limiting weight now.

Obviously a perf. limiting LW to meet the standard criteria is a different animal from having a waiver from them.

Could I keep my self from aiming 2/3 of the distance geometrically correct for 3/50? Thank you for not asking.

(the result would be 220 mtrs past threshold + flare and 22' tail clearance over the threshold line).
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Old 11th Aug 2022, 10:06
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Originally Posted by Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP View Post
Then we clearly worked for different operators. The UK CAA would never allow a "dispensation" for an airline to operate an aircraft in this manner. I've never operated an aircraft like this and I've never worked for a company that would expect its pilots to do so. If you think that's rubbish then that's your choice.
Don’t kid yourself Mr Hacker, there won’t have been even one occasion where you will have hit 50ft over the numbers. But keep telling yourself otherwise if it makes you feel better.
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Old 11th Aug 2022, 10:12
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Originally Posted by Jonty View Post
Don’t kid yourself Mr Hacker, there won’t have been even one occasion where you will have hit 50ft over the numbers. But keep telling yourself otherwise if it makes you feel better.
On the type discussed
+ when pilot is over the numbers
+ the gear is crossing the threshold
= the RA which pilots reference is 31. Auto-call is THIRTY.

​​​​​​Flying to PAPI commonly located at 400 or 450 mtrs past threshold will result in a higher profile that gives the pilot the wrongly desired FIFTY​​ auto-call over the numbers.

Assuming at his ILS home base he flies aligned with the instruments down to 100 feet, going for the big-airplane forward PAPIs will result in 2° profile. If that gets ingrained...
... it a sign of a healthy gut that being 20' (+66%) higher than required with a 2 deg profile feels wrong on a runway like the one discussed.

Some people would push halfway down (because there is actual room) and feel they turned the odds. Some people just arrive on the correct profile to begin with and the crossing height is the same.

These guys got it wrong. I suppose because of not having a clear and defined plan, rendering the PM pretty much powerless. Truth be told, there were still margins from something requiring an official investigation.



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Last edited by FlightDetent; 11th Aug 2022 at 10:37.
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Old 11th Aug 2022, 10:12
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Sometimes things go wrong; so we will be able to know when they go right

Extract from a discussion in another safety forum:-

-/-

“Sometimes things go wrong; so we will be able to know when they go right.”

But to know requires understanding; learning, recall and application of understanding.

Avoid the self satisfying individual focus - blame, a subconscious ‘I could do better’; we were not there, we do not have the complete picture.
Beware ‘fancy’ videos, they frame situations from a narrow viewpoint, enhancing armchair analysis.
Whereas the view from the flight deck is much more relevant; also the context of the situation. Look at the airport map, facilities, geography, any unique wether effects, sea-land interface, thermals, …

Yes an after landing chat, first with self, then crew; and tea (with rich tea biscuits) enabling the many lessons in this event to be exposed. Then learn, consider how and when this learning might be applied.

Human performance is variable - that’s normal, but what bounds normal. Is this defined by hindsight, or considered by inspired foresight. What’s the frequency, distribution of this variability; again context, circumstance, understanding.

Learn before comparing; move away the narrow, mentally distorting view of a camera.

-/-

The interest from the preceding posts is that with two or more examples then the focus on individual pilots diminishes; suggesting more operator, industry wide influence in these operations.

Get out of the armchair, leave the camera behind, think about the view from the flight deck.
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Old 11th Aug 2022, 10:15
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Was that a good apple 🍎?
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Old 11th Aug 2022, 10:22
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Originally Posted by Contact Approach View Post
This is irrelevant as you're visual.
So does that mean you are reliant on the PAPIS? I think there was a previous thread somewhere about being on the correct G/P but the PAPIS not indicating the expected colours. I think a few contributors explained that even the head height of the PF can distort that.

there’s all sorts of funny things that seem to happen at LGSK - there’s an interesting one of a TUI 757 using reverse thrust to reverse back to the taxiway to turn off the runway. I’m sure it was an accident of course.

WTF!! Boeing 757 using the REVERSE GEAR - Skiathos Airport is the one to search on the tube for that. (I can’t watch the links) - it’s quite the watch lol!

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