Leatherman and Swiss army Knives
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: North of the river, W.A.
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Leatherman and Swiss army Knives
Do Leatherman and swiss army knives pass through x-ray machines undetected. I and a lot of work colleages have carried these type of knives for years through various airports around the world and never been pulled up. We don't have check on baggage just light cabin baggage.
We have assumed that because of their all metal content that the blade cannot be seen when knife is folded.
We have assumed that because of their all metal content that the blade cannot be seen when knife is folded.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
They are detectable, however the length of the blade is generally considered not sufficient to be a threat. You can even purchase Swiss Army knives onboard Swissair flights, as part of their inflight sales! Scissors may be removed from pax, if their blades are considered too long.
Regardless, a weapon doesn't HAVE to be metal to be a threat - ceramic knives and firearms carried on the body won't be detected by walk through x-rays or body scans.
The best defence is going to be "weaponry" available to inflight flight crews, including travelling air marshalls - preferably plain-clothed and unidentifiable by any of the flight/cabin crew!
Regardless, a weapon doesn't HAVE to be metal to be a threat - ceramic knives and firearms carried on the body won't be detected by walk through x-rays or body scans.
The best defence is going to be "weaponry" available to inflight flight crews, including travelling air marshalls - preferably plain-clothed and unidentifiable by any of the flight/cabin crew!
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: They seek him here, they seek him there
Posts: 140
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have carried a leatherman to work on a/c for the last couple of years. Only once, at SIN Changi, have I been questioned over it by X ray men. He said that because I was a crew member he would let me through!! In answer to your question it would seem they are detectable by X ray.
Given recent events I am reconsidering my thoughts on carrying a leatherman and flight deck security in general.
Given recent events I am reconsidering my thoughts on carrying a leatherman and flight deck security in general.
I'm an engineer and wear a Leatherman all the time at work.
If I'm flying somewhere in uniform it's usually on my belt and gets chucked in the box to go thru scanner with phone/wallet. No-one ever says a thing.
If I'm flying somewhere in uniform it's usually on my belt and gets chucked in the box to go thru scanner with phone/wallet. No-one ever says a thing.
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If anyone is a crew member in the U.S.,no more Leathermans. Just notified by the company I work for that anything with a blade in not allowed. Leathermans, wine bottle openers with a knike blade(for flight attendendants)will not be allowed.
Leatherman of any kind, or similar, strictly forbidden on person for all Varig flights. Have had to take mine off and seal in bag carried on flight-deck and returned at destination on three occasions now.
Ditto for a small set of spanners, Allen keys and assorted tiny tools I use for working on waveguide. These too were prohibited items as personal effects, again were sealed in bag and carried on flight-deck, same were returned to me at destination.
Although the tools contain no knives of any description, they were labelled "Faca", which is knife in Portuguese.
Ditto for a small set of spanners, Allen keys and assorted tiny tools I use for working on waveguide. These too were prohibited items as personal effects, again were sealed in bag and carried on flight-deck, same were returned to me at destination.
Although the tools contain no knives of any description, they were labelled "Faca", which is knife in Portuguese.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
"If anyone is a crew member in the U.S.,no more Leathermans. Just notified by the company I work for that anything with a blade in not allowed. Leathermans, wine bottle openers with a knike blade(for flight attendendants)will not be allowed.
Knee-jerk reactions by the authorities who want to be SEEN to be doing SOMETHING.
So how about wings with pins? And ground engineers who will still be able to come to the aircraft prior to departure carrying screwdrivers and Leathermans?
Even a single Gillette razor blade held at a hostages throat will be sufficient to gain access to the cockpit!
BTW, plastic/ceramic knives carried on the person are NOT detectable.
Let's get REAL over this issue, and stop the amateur, highly public, but INEFFICIENT confiscation of next to useless (for hijacking) items.
Today's hijacker is generally a WELL-TRAINED professional - it's a long time past overdue that security onboard aircraft was approached by PROFESSIONALS (and not security companies) in consultation with those who have the most to offer - PROFESSIONAL PILOTS and our UNIONS!
Knee-jerk reactions by the authorities who want to be SEEN to be doing SOMETHING.
So how about wings with pins? And ground engineers who will still be able to come to the aircraft prior to departure carrying screwdrivers and Leathermans?
Even a single Gillette razor blade held at a hostages throat will be sufficient to gain access to the cockpit!
BTW, plastic/ceramic knives carried on the person are NOT detectable.
Let's get REAL over this issue, and stop the amateur, highly public, but INEFFICIENT confiscation of next to useless (for hijacking) items.
Today's hijacker is generally a WELL-TRAINED professional - it's a long time past overdue that security onboard aircraft was approached by PROFESSIONALS (and not security companies) in consultation with those who have the most to offer - PROFESSIONAL PILOTS and our UNIONS!
Guest
Posts: n/a
I fully agree with Kaptin M on this issue.
Outdated policies pose more danger to aviation than the hijackers. The modern day terrorists are much more sophisticated than you and I could imagine. It is time airport security gets an overhaul.
[ 13 September 2001: Message edited by: Old Dog ]
Outdated policies pose more danger to aviation than the hijackers. The modern day terrorists are much more sophisticated than you and I could imagine. It is time airport security gets an overhaul.
[ 13 September 2001: Message edited by: Old Dog ]
Moderator
Join Date: Feb 1998
Location: Europe
Posts: 3,052
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Kaptin M I'm afraid we will be seeing a lot of what you correctly describe as "Knee-jerk reactions by the authorities who want to be SEEN to be doing SOMETHING" in the forseeable future.
And inconvenient as that may be for all of us, the bigger danger with these kind of silly gestures is that they will serve as a pacifier for the general public, and so will diminish the outcry for measures that are actually effective.
And what would those be? The only places I have ever felt that security really was effective have been in TLV and JED. Thorough X-ray checks by people who could be bothered to LOOK at the screens, patting down of each and every pax by same efficient security staff and a quiet talk about carry-ons.
But is the traveling public willing to pay for all of this in the long run?
To put up with the inconvenience of being at the airport hours earlier?
Standing in line 3 or 4 times before each flight?
And are we as societies, companies, individuals, willing to give up a lot of our dearly loved freedom to get in return a relative feeling of safety?
Because anything more than a feeling it really would not be. As Kaptin M points out, anything can be used as a weapon, and entry to the cockpit can forced in many different ways.
While the vision of FA's being stabbed, pilots being killed is haunting, through our training we are always aware that these things can happen to us at work, and perhaps that is why we do not have the same knee-jerk reaction that many people not in the industry now experience.
Absolute safety is Utopia.
But both pilots and cabin staff have valuable contributions to make.
And inconvenient as that may be for all of us, the bigger danger with these kind of silly gestures is that they will serve as a pacifier for the general public, and so will diminish the outcry for measures that are actually effective.
And what would those be? The only places I have ever felt that security really was effective have been in TLV and JED. Thorough X-ray checks by people who could be bothered to LOOK at the screens, patting down of each and every pax by same efficient security staff and a quiet talk about carry-ons.
But is the traveling public willing to pay for all of this in the long run?
To put up with the inconvenience of being at the airport hours earlier?
Standing in line 3 or 4 times before each flight?
And are we as societies, companies, individuals, willing to give up a lot of our dearly loved freedom to get in return a relative feeling of safety?
Because anything more than a feeling it really would not be. As Kaptin M points out, anything can be used as a weapon, and entry to the cockpit can forced in many different ways.
While the vision of FA's being stabbed, pilots being killed is haunting, through our training we are always aware that these things can happen to us at work, and perhaps that is why we do not have the same knee-jerk reaction that many people not in the industry now experience.
Absolute safety is Utopia.
But both pilots and cabin staff have valuable contributions to make.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Typical knee jerk reaction by the sort of jerks that coulld not tolerate proper security on their domestic flights. They always thought that the enemy would attack from outside.
So, as a crew member I cannot carry a knife - not even a swiss army knife. The metal knives on board for pax meals are steel, and sharp, so what are they going to do about meal trays? Use plastic? nullPlastic knives are a LOT sharper than steel knives.
Are we to call security to watch over every mechanic that approaches our aircraft with a toolkit?
Why do some of my union dues go to IFALPA who just sit back and accept this sort of crap?
So, as a crew member I cannot carry a knife - not even a swiss army knife. The metal knives on board for pax meals are steel, and sharp, so what are they going to do about meal trays? Use plastic? nullPlastic knives are a LOT sharper than steel knives.
Are we to call security to watch over every mechanic that approaches our aircraft with a toolkit?
Why do some of my union dues go to IFALPA who just sit back and accept this sort of crap?
INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK
Join Date: Dec 1998
Location: Europe
Posts: 350
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why has Air France stopped mag light use?
Well, I carry both a mag light AND a swiss army knife with me in my flightbag and actually have used the swiss tool at times (not the blade) for odd jobs, lose screws, helping the cabin crew sort something out with the galley equipment etc. But to be honest I've also thought that having a knife may come in useful for any reason, an example is that a knife is not in our safety or medical kits if we're stranded in the jungle, even though we have a crash axe. Not to be paranoid but maybe now I'll feel a little better knowing I also have a potential self defence tool, even though all CRM or Hijack training says you need otherwise.
Well, I carry both a mag light AND a swiss army knife with me in my flightbag and actually have used the swiss tool at times (not the blade) for odd jobs, lose screws, helping the cabin crew sort something out with the galley equipment etc. But to be honest I've also thought that having a knife may come in useful for any reason, an example is that a knife is not in our safety or medical kits if we're stranded in the jungle, even though we have a crash axe. Not to be paranoid but maybe now I'll feel a little better knowing I also have a potential self defence tool, even though all CRM or Hijack training says you need otherwise.
Just a numbered other
Only time I've had an incident of this kind aboard, the knife used to threaten a fellow pax was kindly supplied by the cabin crew.
The metal cutlery provided with business class meals are quite large and sharp enough to be a danger.
Perhaps if only pork is on offer...?
The metal cutlery provided with business class meals are quite large and sharp enough to be a danger.
Perhaps if only pork is on offer...?
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: on a pavement outside the Red Lion
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Granted, a D-Cell Mag Lite is a hefty potentional weapon, but in a flight crew case? What about the fire axe? Or the fire extigisher? Of course we've got to do something but this kind of thing is pathetic and won't help in the slightist.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
In fact, when it's all summed up, I believe the authorities are taking the PASSIVE form of resistance, rather than an AGGRESSIVE approach to a Clear and Present Danger!!
Now, I have to confess that I've I've NEVER thought of myself as a Harrison Ford/"movie star type" type....BUT, we have ALL been forced into this Bruce Willis type scenario - the difference being Bruce Willis survived!!
We face the very real situation of NOT redeeming a critically severely life endangering situation!
Take away the Swiss Army knives, and the Leathermans - but realize that there are 100 OTHER weapons available to a trained, professional terrorist, that will NEVER be detected....no matter how comprehensive the checks!!
Now, I have to confess that I've I've NEVER thought of myself as a Harrison Ford/"movie star type" type....BUT, we have ALL been forced into this Bruce Willis type scenario - the difference being Bruce Willis survived!!
We face the very real situation of NOT redeeming a critically severely life endangering situation!
Take away the Swiss Army knives, and the Leathermans - but realize that there are 100 OTHER weapons available to a trained, professional terrorist, that will NEVER be detected....no matter how comprehensive the checks!!
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 152
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My Leatherman is always spotted, pulled out and checked for blade length which is deemed legal - except at Brussels where I was marched into a security office and accused of smuggling weapons onto an aircraft 
and Santiago Chile where it was put in the hold and nicked between there and LHR.
It's a grim thought thatif the USA terrorists were jamming razorblades onto toothbrush handles, they would not have been stopped by any airport security, anywhere.
and Santiago Chile where it was put in the hold and nicked between there and LHR.
It's a grim thought thatif the USA terrorists were jamming razorblades onto toothbrush handles, they would not have been stopped by any airport security, anywhere.
Moderator
Instead of worrying about disarming flight crews of flashlights and small tools, We should be considering giving us more effective tools to deal with hijackers! A can of mace in the flight bag might have been more effective 2 days ago than taking my mag light and a pair of pliers away. I guess that the crash axe will soon be removed as well. Geez, my first line of defense was always going to be my flashlight, followed by the nail file on my leatherman, THEN I was going to try to use the crash axe as a last resort! 
We are part of the SOLUTION, not part of the PROBLEM!
This knee jerk reaction will do NOTHING more than inconvenience passengers and crew!
I am REALLY not looking forward to the inneffective BS that will surely accompany my next trip to work!
We are part of the SOLUTION, not part of the PROBLEM!
This knee jerk reaction will do NOTHING more than inconvenience passengers and crew!
I am REALLY not looking forward to the inneffective BS that will surely accompany my next trip to work!
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Pub
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Three years ago I worked as a security officer at a X-ray screening point at an Australian Airport. Unfortunately, my time their was a real eye-opener. I learnt that airport security (In Aus) is no more than a visual deterrent.
It was a scary thought knowing that, for example, laptop computers were impossible to see through on an x-ray... with the amount of laptops being screened each flight it was a joke to think all of those bags could be opened and manually searched.
Then there is acceptable blade length for leathermans, swiss army knives etc... 8cm OK, 9cm it goes in the hold... a blade is a blade, it will have the same effect if used violently.
Wheelchair pax... Not once did I see any measures taken to thoroughly search the wheelchair cushions, and although inconvenient, search underneath where the pax was seated.
Something many people are not aware of is that many smaller (so called 'Low risk') aiports do not screen/x-ray checked baggage. The only time luggage is x-rayed is randomly by customs officers.
These are just a couple of examples of how pax are given such a false sense of security as they walk through airport security checkpoints.
Although I am sure security screening in the US and EU is placed as a higher priority and the screening equipment is far superior to what I was using, we still have hundreds of airports around the world which do not have acceptable security screening processes and the aircraft departing these airports are flying into the US and EU daily... at what risk??
As discussed on earlier posts, the only possible ways to try to eliminate potential weapons on board an aircraft is to ban carry-on luggage and even the use of knives and forks! Where does it end?
It is extremely sad to think there is no easy answer.
It was a scary thought knowing that, for example, laptop computers were impossible to see through on an x-ray... with the amount of laptops being screened each flight it was a joke to think all of those bags could be opened and manually searched.
Then there is acceptable blade length for leathermans, swiss army knives etc... 8cm OK, 9cm it goes in the hold... a blade is a blade, it will have the same effect if used violently.
Wheelchair pax... Not once did I see any measures taken to thoroughly search the wheelchair cushions, and although inconvenient, search underneath where the pax was seated.
Something many people are not aware of is that many smaller (so called 'Low risk') aiports do not screen/x-ray checked baggage. The only time luggage is x-rayed is randomly by customs officers.
These are just a couple of examples of how pax are given such a false sense of security as they walk through airport security checkpoints.
Although I am sure security screening in the US and EU is placed as a higher priority and the screening equipment is far superior to what I was using, we still have hundreds of airports around the world which do not have acceptable security screening processes and the aircraft departing these airports are flying into the US and EU daily... at what risk??
As discussed on earlier posts, the only possible ways to try to eliminate potential weapons on board an aircraft is to ban carry-on luggage and even the use of knives and forks! Where does it end?
It is extremely sad to think there is no easy answer.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
It is said that ignorance is a dangerous thing Fish, and your statement:
clearly puts YOU in that category.
From your non-lateral thinking, it is apparent that YOU will never be smart enough to get onto the flight deck side of the cockpit door - except as an observer, and even that would be a waste of time for all involved in the effort to get you there!
Don't get carried away with your own importance gents, the days of pilots fixing things are long gone. The leatherman is just another toy / gadget that you can impress the girls with.
From your non-lateral thinking, it is apparent that YOU will never be smart enough to get onto the flight deck side of the cockpit door - except as an observer, and even that would be a waste of time for all involved in the effort to get you there!
