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Aircraft Hit and run at JFK

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Aircraft Hit and run at JFK

Old 26th Jun 2022, 12:41
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Quite apart from the appalling RT, the incredible unprofessionalism and lack of awareness of the ground "controller" one can only wonder why it took Air France 27 minutes to report the incident. What were they doing for the other 26?
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Old 26th Jun 2022, 13:01
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ramp control

Originally Posted by captainsmiffy View Post
How is it that the ground controller is not aware of where AF is? It always bothered me that when I arrived in JFK, I was asked what entry point to the ramp it is that I take or to what gate am I going? Surely I should be controlled and told the routing and the gate, as per the rest of the world operations. JFK just beggars belief….
JFK Ramp is controlled by a private company Ramp Control. At one time their pay was much more than ATC ground control. This caused a rift between the two. They dont like to talk to one another, thats why ground control ask you what entry point to the ramp as ground control dont know which entry point is blocked or not.. Thats why you call Ground Control and advise which exit you are leaving the ramp when requesting taxi instructions. Maybe thats what caused the initial confusion with ground control as he does not knows who is parked where on the ramp or cares what happens on the ramp.
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Old 26th Jun 2022, 13:07
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No wonder it's called Lagos West by some people.
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Old 26th Jun 2022, 14:56
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I have not been to JFK for a decade but always regarded it as an accident waiting to happen. I remember one busy evening a call from ground which went “OK, everyone SHUDDUP!!”. In fact ATC across most of the US was appalling and certainly not in any way ICAO standard.

Luckily the Tiger won’t get across the pond!

Mog
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Old 26th Jun 2022, 15:11
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JFK, ORD and to a (slightly) lesser extend LAX are trash airports staffed by auctioneers and used car salesmen.
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Old 26th Jun 2022, 15:28
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Originally Posted by meleagertoo View Post
Quite apart from the appalling RT, the incredible unprofessionalism and lack of awareness of the ground "controller" one can only wonder why it took Air France 27 minutes to report the incident. What were they doing for the other 26?
From what I understood the AF crew weren’t aware of the bump until told by their ground staff that the Italian had hit them. It seems odd but I can easily see how they did not feel it unless it was a substantial impact.
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Old 26th Jun 2022, 15:39
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Originally Posted by safetypee View Post
That’s not the way it works at JFK, nor at quite a few large US airports.’

However, in this instance, that was how it did work; and additionally from US experience, how frequent similar situations indicate the fragility of that system’s operation.

An attitude of ‘… better get used to it’ can hide significant hazards, expecting that all crews will manage all situations, all of the time, which questions the level of safety - as observed, or as expected - who views, and when.
It would be impossible with the amount of movements at JFK to have one or two ground frequencies handle all.. that is why it’s necessary to have multiple ramp freqs,.and as you know, many of these ramps are congested to the point that one movement can jam the whole thing up.
There is NEVER anytime that I’ve operated JFK where you are uncontrolled.
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Old 26th Jun 2022, 15:53
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JFK ATC: . The place has expertise and experience, but the attitude gets in the way far too often. Too much watching 'Pushing Tin"?

Lucky this time.
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Old 26th Jun 2022, 16:04
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Originally Posted by Lake1952 View Post
The most outrageous part of this IMO is when the GC asked AF008 to copy a phone number for the tower!
Completely agree. The apathetic (and plain old pathetic) handling of this by the ground controller is staggering.

Well done that AF crew.
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Old 26th Jun 2022, 16:27
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The use of the name Alitalia probably caused confusion. The controller would have looked for a Alitalia strip and not finding one and not having taxied a Alitalia aircraft wondered what AF was discussing. The correct call sign is Itarro or something like that. I suspect the aircraft was still painted in Alitalia paint which would explain the ground crew telling the flight crew they were hit by Alitalia. I don’t get the ITA crew dismissing the incident with a curt negative. I would have asked for a lot more information to make 100% sure my aircraft was not involved.
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Old 26th Jun 2022, 17:00
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Originally Posted by Sailvi767 View Post
The use of the name Alitalia probably caused confusion. The controller would have looked for a Alitalia strip and not finding one and not having taxied a Alitalia aircraft wondered what AF was discussing. The correct call sign is Itarro or something like that. I suspect the aircraft was still painted in Alitalia paint which would explain the ground crew telling the flight crew they were hit by Alitalia. I don’t get the ITA crew dismissing the incident with a curt negative. I would have asked for a lot more information to make 100% sure my aircraft was not involved.
Sure, and it is completely unknown to the controllers, Alitalia got a rename, though for the rest stayed the same ?
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Old 26th Jun 2022, 17:01
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Originally Posted by carib man View Post
JFK Ramp is controlled by a private company Ramp Control. At one time their pay was much more than ATC ground control. This caused a rift between the two. They dont like to talk to one another, thats why ground control ask you what entry point to the ramp as ground control dont know which entry point is blocked or not.. Thats why you call Ground Control and advise which exit you are leaving the ramp when requesting taxi instructions. Maybe thats what caused the initial confusion with ground control as he does not knows who is parked where on the ramp or cares what happens on the ramp.
Extremely professional.
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Old 26th Jun 2022, 17:33
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Originally Posted by WideScreen View Post
Sure, and it is completely unknown to the controllers, Alitalia got a rename, though for the rest stayed the same ?
Not quite. They have a new livery. However, not all aircraft have been repainted and there are still plenty in the old colors with the Alitalia titles. As already mentioned above, that too must have added to all the confusion.

Having checked, I can confirm that EI-EJL was still in full ALITALIA livery, but using the new callsign "Itarrow".

Last edited by FUMR; 26th Jun 2022 at 18:26.
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Old 26th Jun 2022, 18:54
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Originally Posted by captainsmiffy View Post
How is it that the ground controller is not aware of where AF is? It always bothered me that when I arrived in JFK, I was asked what entry point to the ramp it is that I take or to what gate am I going? Surely I should be controlled and told the routing and the gate, as per the rest of the world operations. JFK just beggars belief….
Have you landed at ORD? Many times you get back to the gate without having spoken with anyone once on the ground.

Last edited by havick; 28th Jun 2022 at 04:56.
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Old 26th Jun 2022, 19:00
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Originally Posted by Lake1952 View Post
The most outrageous part of this IMO is when the GC asked AF008 to copy a phone number for the tower!
Quite normal actually what they did.
Often used to take an important matter off the frequency. Firstly, as to not congest the ATC frequency. Secondly, as to discuss this privately (and more conveniently) over the phone. We all know everything is live recorded by many parties.

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Old 26th Jun 2022, 19:11
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I have operated into quite a few busy US airports over the years. They can be chaotic to say the least. And I have heard more than patronising RT to non English [first language] speaking crew.

FK10

PS. never say you're visual if they ask if you can see the airfield... Unless you want to be told your'e now on a visual approach. I'm surprised more aviation lawyers haven't swooped in on this years ago....
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Old 26th Jun 2022, 19:21
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Just seen that post from Havick..

First time I landed at ORD. Night time, raining and when we switched to ground it was so congested (taxiways) we were advised "If you can see a way through, go for it!" I'm not joking.

Go the LHR, or anywhere in the LTMA, the controllers speak slowly and clearly to crew that clearly are unfamiliar with the airspace, taxiways and language. And guess what...... less blocked frequencies due to read backs required. How simple is that.

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Old 26th Jun 2022, 19:30
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I am glad that I was at Heathrow ATC!
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Old 26th Jun 2022, 19:30
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If the ground handlers saw the incident - why the hell did they not immediately report it and get the Alitalia Itarro stopped and returned to the gate?

Taking the time to report it to the AF crew who then had to continually call ground to get a response - who then didn't stop the Alitalia beggars belief.
I would have initially made a PAN Call - but as the Yanks are not known for its usage - I would have called a MAYDAY - to preserve life.

Yes some will call it an over reaction - but if it stops a damaged aircraft getting airborne with potentially catastrophic results then my shoulders are big enough for an interview without coffee - but standby for the retort...
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Old 26th Jun 2022, 22:13
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As we all knoow it's quite normal during loading to feel some "bumps" so unless it was a really hard hit I'm not surprised the AF crew didn't realise.
We also also know from other incidents crews might not necessarily feel light impacts in the cockpit.

The only thing that puzzles me is how the crew immediately dismissed the fact they might have hit something.
I'd definitely be asking ATC to confirm it was definitely my aircraft that was suspected of hitting the Air france & who reported it etc. And would definitely be asking the crew if the felt anything strange during taxi, which for some reason they didn't tell us
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