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Bloomberg: Murder-Suicides by Pilots Are Vexing Airlines as Deaths Mount

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Bloomberg: Murder-Suicides by Pilots Are Vexing Airlines as Deaths Mount

Old 19th Jun 2022, 21:35
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Originally Posted by etrang View Post
Bloomberg is a reputable news agency. I doubt that they are making this up.
They are not reputable! Any organisation that runs a headline in the form of ""bullshit unsupported misleading statement" says unnamed expert" has lost sight of their purpose. That headline demonstrates that they do not have a functioning editorial process and should therefore not receive any journalistic "public good" protection in the courts. I hope they get sued into insolvency for that.
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Old 19th Jun 2022, 22:15
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Originally Posted by phylosocopter View Post
They are not reputable! Any organisation that runs a headline in the form of ""bullshit unsupported misleading statement" says unnamed expert" has lost sight of their purpose. That headline demonstrates that they do not have a functioning editorial process and should therefore not receive any journalistic "public good" protection in the courts. I hope they get sued into insolvency for that.
Presumably your view applies also to the scurrilous Wall Street Journal, who have also commented on the intentional manoeuvre scenario ?
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Old 20th Jun 2022, 00:02
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
Presumably your view applies also to the scurrilous Wall Street Journal, who have also commented on the intentional manoeuvre scenario ?
They did get this piece correct, https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-catas...re-11553555444. Kudos.
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Old 20th Jun 2022, 02:15
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Originally Posted by White Knight View Post
I’m well aware that he succeeded thank you! I remember the photos of the semi submerged jet in the newspapers of the day; apologies if you didn’t get the ironic style of my prose😎
He did not succeed in committing suicide.
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Old 20th Jun 2022, 04:19
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Mass murder has become part of our culture. The airplane, unfortunately, provides an even greater guarantee of success at it than a weapon of war. Once unthinkable, the pilot willing to kill himself along with an airplane full of people is now an undeniable reality .And the inevitability of the next one is hardly less than that of the next school shooting.
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Old 20th Jun 2022, 08:37
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A-checks, Annuals, heavy D-checks etc are all carried out on the aircraft. The Pilot gets a Medical every year and maybe 8 hours in the Sim to check their physical health and their skills level. Nowhere is there a check-up "from the neck up".

We standardise our Aircraft, we standardise our SOPs so why not the same for Pilots? Nobody is trained to spot the clinical indicators in their colleagues and thus the easiest solution would be to fire anyone who is in any way 'different'. That should thin the numbers down a bit.

Surely there is a better idea out there somewhere???
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Old 20th Jun 2022, 09:54
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I can't read the article , but there is a explanation in "Revisiting Impulsivity in Suicide" where they point out that even if they had a 99% accurate tool measuring patients that would commit suicide. And hospitalise all of them. Because so few people are committing suicide means then same time that they would put 5 true cases out of a 100 in hospital. The other 95 shouldn't be there... So as someone mentioned earlier, it looks like it's not possible at the moment to do...
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Old 21st Jun 2022, 22:17
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It is simply not possible to rule this sort of tragedy out. . Suicide of a pilot, involving and often including all crew and passengers, is an unlikely but possible event. It will remain so. No medical examiner can identify this possibility with certainty. Nor can a sim examiner, line checker, nor colleague on the flight deck. Sad but true.There are quite a few pilot suicides (taboo words) which have occurred prior to report, and many in life between duties.
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Old 22nd Jun 2022, 15:19
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Originally Posted by MissChief View Post
It is simply not possible to rule this sort of tragedy out. . Suicide of a pilot, involving and often including all crew and passengers, is an unlikely but possible event. It will remain so. No medical examiner can identify this possibility with certainty. Nor can a sim examiner, line checker, nor colleague on the flight deck. Sad but true.There are quite a few pilot suicides (taboo words) which have occurred prior to report, and many in life between duties.
You can eliminate pilot suicide crashes by removing pilots.
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Old 22nd Jun 2022, 19:14
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Originally Posted by etrang View Post
You can eliminate pilot suicide crashes by removing pilots.
And how excactly do you propose we identify every suicidal pilot without removing hundreds that were just in a bad mood?
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Old 22nd Jun 2022, 19:23
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Originally Posted by hans brinker View Post
And how exactly do you propose we identify every suicidal pilot without removing hundreds that were just in a bad mood?
I think the OP means remove all pilots ...
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Old 22nd Jun 2022, 19:25
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Originally Posted by hans brinker View Post
And how excactly do you propose we identify every suicidal pilot without removing hundreds that were just in a bad mood?
You've quite missed the point. If you remove all the pilots, then you do not have do identify which ones are suicidal, because both the suicidal pilots and the bad-mood pilots will be standing on the ground, in the same unemployment line.
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Old 22nd Jun 2022, 22:49
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
I think the OP means remove all pilots ...

Originally Posted by slacktide View Post
You've quite missed the point. If you remove all the pilots, then you do not have do identify which ones are suicidal, because both the suicidal pilots and the bad-mood pilots will be standing on the ground, in the same unemployment line.
I was hoping that wasn’t his point.

“military statistics show the vast majority of flights go smoothly and the mishap rate has declined steadily over the past decade. Officials acknowledge however that drones will never be as safe as commercial airliners”
(from the richest country that spends the highest proportion on defense)


http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/inv...-from-the-sky/
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Old 22nd Jun 2022, 23:42
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Much of the debate assumes the suicidal pilot would do it while flying with innocent passengers. Surely a proportion of suicides might be performed away from work and alone, by one of the many available methods? Perhaps there are data already collected?
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Old 23rd Jun 2022, 00:24
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The statistics mean nothing. That 'one off' event only accrues meaning when you are on that one plane that one day when the bitch or bastard decdies to drive it into the ground with everyone else going along for that ride.

Know your people, take care of your people, and having said that current airline management is not going to listen.
So it will happen again.
It's a matter of when, not if.
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Old 23rd Jun 2022, 05:39
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Originally Posted by etrang View Post
You can eliminate pilot suicide crashes by removing pilots.
Nope, you just shift the problem to the remote operators on the ground. Who, btw, will have much less qualms about crashing an airliner - they aren't sitting in it.

IMHO pilot suicide by crash is sjmply a residual risk we have to accept. Like in any endeavor in life.
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Old 23rd Jun 2022, 12:46
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 View Post
It's been a few years, but I seem to recall that after 9-11 some American pilots were carrying personal weapons on the flight deck.
(I'll ask a recently retired Southwest Captain I know if he did, because I think that he did for a while if I try to resurrect some conversations we had while he was still flying...). That would offer a precedent for armed FOs and Captains on the flight deck. (Though I suspect that your recommendation is made with tongue squarely in cheek).
Not sure if that was a thing in other places.
I love your screening form proposal.
No US pilots were or are carrying personal weapons on the flight deck. There is a Federal program where a pilot goes through fairly extensive training and becomes a Federal Flight deck officer. They carry a government issued weapon.
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Old 23rd Jun 2022, 13:20
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Originally Posted by Sailvi767 View Post
No US pilots were or are carrying personal weapons on the flight deck. There is a Federal program where a pilot goes through fairly extensive training and becomes a Federal Flight deck officer. They carry a government issued weapon.
Thanks for clearing that up (I had for sure remembered that incorrectly). It makes far more sense for a program like that to have a government issued weapon (and other provisions) than not to.
It would not be a means to deal with the topic of this thread, in any case.
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Old 24th Jun 2022, 10:27
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Originally Posted by ferry pilot View Post
Not that long ago the career path to a front seat in an airliner was not for the faint of heart. You learned the hard way, through bitter and painful experience, that aviation is a tough and unforgiving business.
The widespread stigma of depression is frightingly demonstrated even in this thread.

In eyes of many, mental health problems are seen as signs of some sort of weakness, and regurlarly a more "tough" handling is suggested as an effective cure. This anachronistic and unscientific approach is a significant problem. It motivates affected pilots to hide their illness.

Additionally, most loss of license insurance contracts exclude mental health issues, so an outing would have catastrophic financial repercussions.
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Old 24th Jun 2022, 13:55
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Originally Posted by james ozzie View Post
Much of the debate assumes the suicidal pilot would do it while flying with innocent passengers.
Another solution lies in the penultimate word of this statement.
Several infamous countries apply the capital punishment.
If one replaces "innocent passengers" with inmates extracted from the death row, the issue is also solved.

Luc
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