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China requires provenance of all foreign aircraft

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China requires provenance of all foreign aircraft

Old 1st Jun 2022, 21:55
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China requires provenance of all foreign aircraft

Several media outlets reporting that all foreign carriers are required to prove aircraft ownership and other details to the Chinese authorities.

Anecdotal evidence suggests that a lot of landing permits are being delayed for weeks as carriers scramble to provide the mountains of paperwork for EACH aircraft- and the Chinese bureaucracy takes it's (diligent?!) time.

This is in response to China barring Russia from flying foreign owned aircraft into their airspace. It has naturally applied this burden of proof to ALL foreign carriers.

Some may say this action only favours the Chinese carriers, particularly the freight carriers- as they are virtually the only aircraft operating into and out of China.

On the other hand it is good the Chinese stood up the the Russians.

The cynic in me says the motive lies in the deep rooted psyche of the CCP to leverage any event globally to gain a strategic and economic advantage

https://apnews.com/article/russia-uk...34b19e3d524c33




Last edited by Senior Pilot; 1st Jun 2022 at 22:03. Reason: Fix url
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Old 2nd Jun 2022, 05:28
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I think what Russia did amounts to piracy in many ways and China seems to be doing the right thing in asking them to provide provenance and if they can't then don't enter their airspace. Seems reasonable to me.

However to apply that rule to only Russia and no other country/carrier is partisan and is taking sides. It would be hypocritical. It should be reasonably easy to provide up to date ownership records asap for assets that cost in the tens or hundreds of millions of dollars.....and if not.... why not?
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Old 2nd Jun 2022, 07:42
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Originally Posted by BoeingDriver99 View Post
I think what Russia did amounts to piracy in many ways and China seems to be doing the right thing in asking them to provide provenance and if they can't then don't enter their airspace. Seems reasonable to me.

However to apply that rule to only Russia and no other country/carrier is partisan and is taking sides. It would be hypocritical. It should be reasonably easy to provide up to date ownership records asap for assets that cost in the tens or hundreds of millions of dollars.....and if not.... why not?
The way I read the article, it's simply putting the onus on airlines to prove that their aircraft are legitimately registered with the marks they are carrying. The only time an airline is likely to have a problem in supplying that evidence is if its aircraft have been moved from one country's register to another without being officially de-registered from the former.

For example a leased aircraft transferred from the Bermuda register to the Russian register without the involvement of the lessor ...
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Old 3rd Jun 2022, 11:24
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
The way I read the article, it's simply putting the onus on airlines to prove that their aircraft are legitimately registered with the marks they are carrying. The only time an airline is likely to have a problem in supplying that evidence is if its aircraft have been moved from one country's register to another without being officially de-registered from the former.

For example a leased aircraft transferred from the Bermuda register to the Russian register without the involvement of the lessor ...
Honestly, I don`t get it. Every airplane that I had flown/inspected/released to flight had a Certificate of Registration on board, where it was clearly stated who is the owner of that particular aircraft. If that document is forged, any other document, supporting that (false) claim, can be forged too.
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Old 3rd Jun 2022, 12:34
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Originally Posted by hoistop View Post
Honestly, I don`t get it. Every airplane that I had flown/inspected/released to flight had a Certificate of Registration on board, where it was clearly stated who is the owner of that particular aircraft. If that document is forged, any other document, supporting that (false) claim, can be forged too.
The Chinese Iím guessing understand things can be copied and forged and in the name of fairness they probably want independent verification from agencies , banks , leasing companies of ownership .
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Old 3rd Jun 2022, 12:37
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Originally Posted by hoistop View Post
Honestly, I don`t get it. Every airplane that I had flown/inspected/released to flight had a Certificate of Registration on board, where it was clearly stated who is the owner of that particular aircraft. If that document is forged, any other document, supporting that (false) claim, can be forged too.
I'm sure it's not beyond the wit of the Chinese to ascertain which Russian-operated aircraft are still officially on the Bermudan register, and to hire a tame reggie-spotter to confirm what RA- marks, if any, are now being worn by them. The Russians' ability to forge a CofR or other documents is irrelevant.
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Old 3rd Jun 2022, 18:12
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China has been cash rich for a few years now looking for investment opportunities around the world. Perhaps they are significant investors in AER Cap Holdings, Chapman Freeborn, GECAS, Nordic Aviation Capital or one of the other global leasing companies who are now whistling for their money after Putin grabbed their aircraft. If one of those aircraft lands outside Russia it will promptly get a seizure notice nailed to the mast and not be permitted to leave.... That includes in China.

Follow the money!
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Old 4th Jun 2022, 00:48
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Originally Posted by hoistop View Post
Honestly, I don`t get it. Every airplane that I had flown/inspected/released to flight had a Certificate of Registration on board, where it was clearly stated who is the owner of that particular aircraft. If that document is forged, any other document, supporting that (false) claim, can be forged too.
A "Certificate of Registration" , CoR generally does not indicate who is the beneficial owner of an aircraft. Under the FAA's regs, it is an express statement that it does not indicate ownership, same for most CAA's Part 47. The CoR provides evidence of the party that is the contact point for the CAA for administrative matters.

Jurisdictionally dependent, the ICAO definition of operator is applied to the CoR, that is, whoever has the right to control the aircraft for 28 days or more will be recorded on the CoR, however that is CAA dependent, some note the 28 day period, but do not require notification to the CAA of parties with rights to control of the aircraft.

China is not necessarily acting unreasonably with their action, it is consistent with taking some care with not getting crosswise with the US led sanctions series, but it is a pain for many. The beneficial owner of a leased aircraft is not the operator as recorded on the CoR. It will become problematic for many FAR 91K operations, as there is a complex ownership requirement for such programs, but they are recorded so can be provided. For leased aircraft, the same applies, the documents of ownership and lease may differ from the CoR in fact generally must be different.

good work for lawyers.
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Old 4th Jun 2022, 07:27
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Originally Posted by KAPAC View Post
The Chinese Iím guessing understand things can be copied and forged .
Did anyone else chuckle at that bit? Rolax and Brightlong watches spring to mind.

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Old 4th Jun 2022, 11:14
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Originally Posted by hoistop View Post
Honestly, I don`t get it. Every airplane that I had flown/inspected/released to flight had a Certificate of Registration on board, where it was clearly stated who is the owner of that particular aircraft. If that document is forged, any other document, supporting that (false) claim, can be forged too.
The certificate of registration is there for the legal entity that the bills for landing, overflight, ATC get sent to. It represents in most cases the operator, not the owner.

Some time ago there was an international convention called the Captetown Convention in which we all agreed to setup a centralized registry of ownership for aircraft and engines ( https://www.internationalregistry.aero/ir-web/ ) for about US$40 any member of the public can lookup the the ownership details of aircraft and engines.

Then came along the Russian fruit loop that gave the middle finger to the convention, they were a signatory.

Under the convention every change of ownership goes via the international registry, what Russia is doing is not going via the registry, the original owners are still listed in the registry.

What amount to a US$40 certificate that legitimate operators can obtain from the registry seems like a small price tp pay for the piracy being done in Russia. As a result of their actions every aircraft operated costs more, it is industry that is paying for the Russian piracy, not the Russians and not the Bankers.
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Old 4th Jun 2022, 12:19
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Despite the clear and simple explanation above, I am now looking at EASA NAA issued Certificate of Registration saying:

4) Name of the Owner
5) Address of the Owner

But hold on...

Note 1: This Aircraft is Operated by... (different entity)

Note 2: This Certificate is issued for registration purposes only and is not a certificate of title. DG CAA does not determine rights of ownership as between private persons.

After a closer look, not confusing at all.

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Old 4th Jun 2022, 12:38
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Originally Posted by swh View Post
Under the convention every change of ownership goes via the international registry, what Russia is doing is not going via the registry, the original owners are still listed in the registry.
Are the aircraft concerned not still owned by the (non-Russian) lessors ?
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Old 4th Jun 2022, 21:16
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Surely the Chinese are checking all aircraft so that when this nonsense has played through they can say to the Russians - "see we played fair, we did it to everyone."
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Old 4th Jun 2022, 23:54
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
Are the aircraft concerned not still owned by the (non-Russian) lessors ?
the leased aircraft that have been stolen by Russia are almost without doubt still registered with a full interest of the ownership with the Capetown Convention, the registry being in Ireland. Where the terms of the lease have been breached, then the owner has to revert to civil action for the breaches. The curiosity in this case is the state is acting illegally, the aircraft had registration, and then the state is complicit with the breach of the lease agreements, and further now disregards airworthiness matters to which the state has an obligation as a signatory to ICAO.

The response by Russia to sanctions may have been expedient at the time but the long term damage is substantial. It will be a brave owner that rents or leases or allows any asset to enter, overfly or otherwise have any exposure to Russia for the future. Money talks, but the loading out the front end for any future involvement with Russia would be higher than outright purchase price...

There are some odd ICAO conventions that act to prohibit a state from enforcing liens on an aircraft in a 3rd state... local judgements can be enforced by the state, so a visiting aircraft that is in breach of a contract from another country could have say, Chinese court judgements enforced. The states of manufacture could also raise ADs based on reported non compliance with the AMMs grounding the aircraft. That would be disregarded by Russia, but the Chinese etc would probably happily ground those aircraft on entry to their territory, under their obligations to ICAO and state foreign aircraft safety oversight rules.

Where Russia disregards international law which seems to have been their historical intent, nationalising the assets works within their own boundary, but doesn't get a signature of release from the owner with the cape town convention.

China (excluding Hong Kong and Macau...) is a signatory state to the treaty and would be a party with obligations under Article 43 to enforce court orders issued in compliance with Chapter III Default remedies:
  • Article 8 — Remedies of chargee
  • Article 12 — Additional remedies
  • Article 13 — Relief pending final determination
China seems to be obliged to take action on this matter, and they are heading it off at the pass by their request for provenance, it locks those assets inside Russia which also happens to be a treaty signatory is unlikely to meet any of their obligations.

Once again, the treaty doesn't make allowance for a lawless state, one that just cares less about their treaty obligations. There is a method of termination by a state, but there is no method to remove the state, although the Article 61 — Review Conferences, amendments and related matters permits amendment that can cure the Russia syndrome. Cynically, one can assume that a method of removal of a rogue,"Russia like state" is not needed, they are effectively removing themselves from future need of such treaties, they can continue playing with North Korea all by themselves. As Russia is a complicit party to the breaches of the treaty obligations, the lessors may have a ready fund to dig into in the bank accounts that have been frozen, lawyers are going to be the only winners of the criminal actions of Russia in Ukraine.

It's hard to imagine any manager in the future whetting the appetite of their board by using the term "lease", "JV", "loan" or similar in connection to the name "Russia". Normally, a return to "business as usual" would happen promptly, but the further confirmation that Russia disregards every convention that the rest of the world considers reasonable will make it difficult to regain any trust in their word. The immediate damage to Russia by the ego of Putin is just beginning. Peter Zeihan may well be correct that Russia will not survive as the RF, disintegration may be coming along sooner than later.
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Old 5th Jun 2022, 00:21
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There are some odd ICAO conventions that act to prohibit a stat
reports a day or so ago are of Sri Lanka impounding a Russian 330 in CMB.
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Old 5th Jun 2022, 07:39
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Latest reports suggest that two of AFL's dozen A333s are grounded and enjoying Sri Lanka's hospitality. Looks like carelessness ...
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Old 5th Jun 2022, 20:57
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
Latest reports suggest that two of AFL's dozen A333s are grounded and enjoying Sri Lanka's hospitality. Looks like carelessness ...
two now?

was the second one of the rescue aircraft?
https://m.economictimes.com/news/int...w/92005972.cms
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Old 5th Jun 2022, 22:23
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The second aircraft has now returned to SVO; the original one, which arrived on 2nd June, is still grounded at CMB.
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Old 6th Jun 2022, 06:08
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Originally Posted by fdr View Post
..... The curiosity in this case is the state is acting illegally, the aircraft had registration, and then the state is complicit with the breach of the lease agreements, and further now disregards airworthiness matters to which the state has an obligation as a signatory to ICAO.
These are nice words for "state-piracy", as we have seen from some of the poorest African countries.
Originally Posted by fdr View Post
......Where Russia disregards international law which seems to have been their historical intent, nationalising the assets works within their own boundary, but doesn't get a signature of release from the owner with the cape town convention.
Actually, I think, Russia will simply produce "court documents", with a legal binding confiscation of all these aircrafts, stating the new legal ownership of these aircrafts is in Russia. And, then, China will say: "OK, these are legally owned by a Russian company, etc". If there is an ownership dispute, please first go to court, before we take action on this. So, yeah, I do have some doubts, whether the China mandatory ownership proving is going to make much of a difference. The only difference is, that China can now state they did take action.

Originally Posted by fdr View Post
..... The immediate damage to Russia by the ego of Putin is just beginning. Peter Zeihan may well be correct that Russia will not survive as the RF, disintegration may be coming along sooner than later.
I completely agree on that and TBH, I think, the only real solution of this conflict, is indeed, when the RF gets dissolved into many individual and much smaller states. Otherwise, the aggression will keep coming again, the moment, Russia has rebuilt its armed forces.

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Old 7th Jun 2022, 00:56
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Originally Posted by WideScreen View Post

These are nice words for "state-piracy", as we have seen from some of the poorest African countries.

Actually, I think, Russia will simply produce "court documents", with a legal binding confiscation of all these aircrafts, stating the new legal ownership of these aircrafts is in Russia. And, then, China will say: "OK, these are legally owned by a Russian company, etc". If there is an ownership dispute, please first go to court, before we take action on this. So, yeah, I do have some doubts, whether the China mandatory ownership proving is going to make much of a difference. The only difference is, that China can now state they did take action.

I completely agree on that and TBH, I think, the only real solution of this conflict, is indeed, when the RF gets dissolved into many individual and much smaller states. Otherwise, the aggression will keep coming again, the moment, Russia has rebuilt its armed forces.
Wasn't so long ago that one of those tin pot countries in Africa had their registration used for some Antonovs working UN support operations. Two of these aircraft were photographed at the same time in two airports over 2100nm apart, with the same registration number painted on the side. Oddly the twins were not a registration on the tin pot states registration list, nor was the type on the register anyway. At the same time, on another continent, the "not the North" one, a B737 was being leased from another not northern area on another continent. The lessor was in default on the lease and the lessee sent over a team to pick up the plane. They got a great photo of it parked beside another B737, both with the lessees registration painted on them. Another B737 was sitting at the same location, and that was on a lease to the same lessee.... it had left the other continent on a 21.193 SAWC for the purposes of ferrying to the not to not the north continent, to be broken up. It ended up doing 6 months of passenger flights for the lessee, and was then sent back to the not the not the north country and broken up, all on a SAWC... Same country, a full C Check on a B727 got falsified, the guys who did that didn't spend much on the rubber stamp, they spelt the CAA's name in spanglish wrongly, accent on wrong letters.. etc. The plane got itself impounded on return... and the feds had a heck of a laugh. Another series of planes were using the same registration in different countries, including one that was sold to an EU national, who was then told that in spite of buying the aircraft free n' clear, the aircraft actually wasn't able to be deregistered in the current country as the current country registration was in fact illegal, as the plane hadn't been deregistered in another country anyway, as there was still a lien on it for about the same amount as the EU guy had paid to purchase it. That seller wasn't from a rat infested, tin pot African state, yet it was only a tin pot African state that then part out an arrest warrant on the guy... for the following. The poor unfortunate seller had a DC3 that had the PT6's on it, and had one in an unhappy state. He asked another operator in the tin pot African state if he might have a spare so they could ferry their sorry Dak to the new world for work. The hapless tinpot state operator loaned a PT6 to the kindly old gentleman (not Rickover) who then flew away. Months passed, and then the tin pot state operator asked when he may get his engine back, it having been a considerable while since the loaner went out the door. The response was, "well, we parted the engine out, so you can't get it back.... " No wonder there was an arrest warrant out for the guy.

A physical inspection of data plates found it affixed to a 3rd B737. In the meantime, the lessee of this sad story planned a B737 into the weeds on an approach flown in competition with a thunderstorm. The plane in that accident that killed a few dozen punters was remarkably untainted by shenanigans, or at least none were reported.

Africa is not the only country with oddities that occur, not by a long shot.

Same guy spak filled a PC12 that had taken some serious flesh wounds from a hand grenade, which shredded the aft fuselage of the plane. It got painted in the not the not the north continent, with the repair more or less not being Pilatus's preference. The feds did get in on that one... If your late 90's PC12 looks a little worse for wear at the RH tail, then it would pay to see who did a 337 for that toy between 2006 and 2010.... It had a nice paint job in 2010....

Some of this is amusing, sometimes 4 people die when they are given a vacuum pump that is supposed to be overhauled and is not, and they get to try limited panel flight unsuccessfully, and it ends in tears and litigation, with one of the more sturdy regulators doing zip.

China is not unreasonable with their request for provenance.

Russia can provide all of the court documents they wish to the aircraft registry https://www.internationalregistry.aero/ir-web/ or [email protected] and I doubt that without a signatory from the recorded owner that the ownership will change hands. As no court cases on the matter are in the news, I would expect that Russia hasn't tried their luck in finding how far their reputation has been dragged by Putin, but it is not likely that any court direction coming out of a criminal state such as Russia will be accepted in Ireland under the treaty. (I certainly hope that is an overly optimistic expectation of jurisprudence)
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