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VS 3 turnback

Old 5th May 2022, 21:02
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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I’m really surprised that simple barriers in the roster/schedule process and systems do not prevent this from happing. Our company system will not allow a pilot with LIFUS status to be paired with a line PIC. I find it hard to believe VS does not have a similar system barrier.
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Old 5th May 2022, 21:13
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Probably not, but luckily safety policy of most decent airlines this days is the opposite of mouth being kept shut.

Originally Posted by CVividasku View Post
So, what would prevent me from operating as a first officer on that day ?
The simple fact that you will not have yet completed your conversion course in line with ORO.FC.120.
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Old 5th May 2022, 21:57
  #43 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by FlyingStone View Post
The simple fact that you will not have yet completed your conversion course in line with ORO.FC.120.
The simple fact he does not understand proves he's not qualified.
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Old 5th May 2022, 23:31
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 911slf View Post
If the FO is new and not fully qualified, is it the case that there should be a third pilot on the flight deck? If the captain is incapacitated, it makes no odds whether he/she is a qualified trainer - or am I missing something here?
No supernumerary pilot during line training in the US, except for augmented operations.
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Old 5th May 2022, 23:35
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by CVividasku View Post
I have a question regarding exactly this topic. Once I succeeded my skill test and then my base training, my license was issued the very next day. (maybe even just after the skill test, I forgot)
So, what would prevent me from operating as a first officer on that day ? When I finished my line training and succeeded the line check, nothing on my license changed.
You havenít met the minimum experience requirements. Until youíve been checked out by a trainer, you canít operate without special supervision. Simple as that.
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Old 6th May 2022, 11:21
  #46 (permalink)  
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Any current Virgin pilots care to comment?
Apparently things arenít great at the moment.
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Old 6th May 2022, 11:43
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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Is there anywhere thatís good at the moment?
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Old 6th May 2022, 14:06
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by srjumbo747 View Post
Any current Virgin pilots care to comment?
Apparently things arenít great at the moment.
😂😂

Things are absolutely fine! Still get paid a good salary and pension on time, still get leave approved, still flying to great destinations on brand new aircraft.

Yea we are working harder, but still one of the best gigs out there.

get back in your box ☺️
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Old 6th May 2022, 18:37
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Of course if the copilot were to "Incapacitate" the Captain could then decide his course of action based on what he feels most comfortable with. There is no requirement to land at nearest suitable and if the route to destination is programmed into the FMS and he does not want to divert or dump fuel he could continue to destination. A pan call is required.

I am aware of a USA to Europe flight that flew for over five hours and continued to destination after the FO incapacitated. The Captain said that to dump fuel and divert into a snowy Newfoundland at night would have scared the hell out of him but to continue to destination and his home base and land in daylight was very straightforward.

If the VS Captain had continued, unless it was the last flight to JFK, a crew could have been positioned out later that day to JFK to fly the aircraft back the following day. Passengers would not have known anything and the schedule would not have been disrupted. If the Captain in this case felt happier to return or was advised to then fair enough.
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Old 6th May 2022, 19:03
  #50 (permalink)  

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Nope, the FAA would be waterboarding Virgin's AOC by now, and rightfully so. Not an option to fly an uncertified service any further than necessary, passenger convenience notwithstanding. Not to mention the social media carnage aftermath.

As one grows older the game gets more simple. The more truthful the better (choice).
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Old 7th May 2022, 18:56
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Arthur1815 View Post
Iím really surprised that simple barriers in the roster/schedule process and systems do not prevent this from happing. Our company system will not allow a pilot with LIFUS status to be paired with a line PIC. I find it hard to believe VS does not have a similar system barrier.
And if the rostering/training department inadvertently removed the (T) or LIFUS status?
Garbage in, Garbage Out.
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Old 7th May 2022, 20:31
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by draglift View Post
Of course if the copilot were to "Incapacitate" the Captain could then decide his course of action based on what he feels most comfortable with. There is no requirement to land at nearest suitable and if the route to destination is programmed into the FMS and he does not want to divert or dump fuel he could continue to destination. A pan call is required.

I am aware of a USA to Europe flight that flew for over five hours and continued to destination after the FO incapacitated. The Captain said that to dump fuel and divert into a snowy Newfoundland at night would have scared the hell out of him but to continue to destination and his home base and land in daylight was very straightforward.

If the VS Captain had continued, unless it was the last flight to JFK, a crew could have been positioned out later that day to JFK to fly the aircraft back the following day. Passengers would not have known anything and the schedule would not have been disrupted. If the Captain in this case felt happier to return or was advised to then fair enough.
Funny.
In my Airline, not the one in question, if one of us is incapacitated our manuals state we shall declare a mayday..
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Old 10th May 2022, 07:56
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Contact Approach View Post
Is there anywhere thatís good at the moment?
A phrase that is probably embossed on the gold wallpaper at VHQ by now.
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Old 10th May 2022, 12:00
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Then they do a root cause analysis and put a fix in place. Should keep the Authority happy as well
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Old 11th May 2022, 01:03
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by FlightDetent View Post
Nope, the FAA would be waterboarding Virgin's AOC by now, and rightfully so. Not an option to fly an uncertified service any further than necessary, passenger convenience notwithstanding. Not to mention the social media carnage aftermath.

As one grows older the game gets more simple. The more truthful the better (choice).
I'd argue that most people not concerned with the incident would be none the wiser, had they continued. My preference would have been to fill out the paperwork after getting to JFK, but perhaps the company wanted them to return.
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Old 11th May 2022, 01:52
  #56 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by Check Airman View Post
I'd argue that most people not concerned with the incident would be none the wiser, had they continued. My preference would have been to fill out the paperwork after getting to JFK, but perhaps the company wanted them to return.
I incline to avoid the FAA paperwork if they had the chance. Nevertheless, this is not a PIC's decision to make, unless he forces his hand toward an option with greater safety margins.

But as you bolded my text, sooner or later someone would had leaked it out, or a bulletin from AAIB be published. TabloŪds would have loved the story: Untrained crew flies 300 souls across the Atlantic! Virgin too much? Pilots need proper initiation too...
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Old 11th May 2022, 06:53
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Practically, the FO on this flight had just completed a type rating course (ZFT) and part of their line training, so in terms of operating the aircraft, would be pretty current and capable, especially as you cover stuff in conversion that you donít often see in recurrent training and a lot of it would have been NNPs. Risk to aviation: negligible.

Having witnessed the FAA go after a foreign crew that followed procedure approved by their airline, regulator, aircraft manufacturer and the FAA themselves, I would have second thoughts about continuing to the USA once the rostering error had been discovered. I suspect thatís one of the reasons Virgin management asked them to return once the situation became clear.
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Old 11th May 2022, 07:37
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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A wise decision was made.
Like buying my EFOS electronic training documents a whiles back. Made answering CAA annual inspection questions on command course failure rate much much easier. The data can be inter faced, drilled and cut . Electronic permissions are a good tool.
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