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Ukraine and associated airspace

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Ukraine and associated airspace

Old 28th Feb 2022, 03:34
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Originally Posted by ex-EGLL View Post
Well, AFL111 made it through as you said but AFL157 (PUJ - SV0) and AFL159 (CUN-SVO) both seem to have taken a somewhat circuitous along the US Canadian border before turning to a more northerly heading when east of Canadian Domestic Airspace
All of these three flights you mentioned will follow the same route from VESMI (a waypoint within Gander-CZQX). I can't post any image yet because I'm new to PPRuNe, but you can see the route they're following here: imgur.com/zgjUphy.png

That means they are flying over Canadian, Danish (Greenland), and Norwegian airspace, entering Russia in the Murmansk region that borders Norway. In the Canadian NOTAM, there was a phone number for the affected aircraft to request an exemption, which I assumed they did successfully, since they all are one-way repatriation flights. From the Danish NOTAM, they seemed to have accepted waiver requests as well till 2300Z (they no longer are). I couldn't find any NOTAMs referring to the airspace ban in Norwegian airspace, i.e. ENOB and ENOR, which are the FIRs they're flying through. Although Norway has said they're banning Russian flights, likely because they are not in the EU, they haven't issued immediate NOTAMs in this regard.
Originally Posted by brak View Post
cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-news-02-27-22/h_1889b357ab1275bf9247079bf0d6f4e2
The 1641Z NOTAM did state that they were accommodating exemption requests for the affected aircraft. I thought that was the case here.AFFECTED AIRCRAFT WISHING TO OBTAIN AN AUTHORIZATION OR CLEARANCE
INTO THE ABOVE-MENTIONED AIRSPACE MAY APPLY TO THE MINISTRY OF
TRANSPORT AT 1-877-992-6853 OR 1-613-992-6853. 27 FEB 16:41 2022 UNTIL 25 MAY
16:00 2022 ESTIMATED. CREATED: 27 FEB 16:41 2022
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Old 28th Feb 2022, 18:35
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A CBC report on the Aeroflot flight includes the following:
Nav Canada confirmed to Reuters that Aeroflot did enter the Canadian airspace. It said the aircraft operator declared the flight as a humanitarian flight as it entered the domestic airspace, which requires special handling by air traffic control under normal circumstances.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/trans...-ban-1.6366823
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Old 28th Feb 2022, 20:21
  #83 (permalink)  
 
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IFALPA Safety Bulletin 28 February 2022

Referring to "Airspace Closures" IFALPA has issued a Safety Bulletin addressing Interference with.GNSS signals. Text of the SAB refers to military activities and conflict zones.
Link:
https://ifalpa.us13.list-manage.com/...9&e=ec48ca9e7e

22sab06.
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Old 1st Mar 2022, 06:33
  #84 (permalink)  
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Some of the posts here showed a total misunderstanding of what the rules of the air are and what the old Chicago convention stipulates. You can issue sanctions against airlines, not against State flights. Civil ATC is not a police service, any flight entering your airspace with a flight plan will be given service, what happens afterwards is a matter for the authorities after landing. There are more worrying things happening right now than worrying if one Aeroflot aircraft is entering an FIR supposedly not being allowed into .We should be far more worried about the Western aircraft currently taking shortcuts around Ukrainian airspace when hell will break loose.
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Old 1st Mar 2022, 07:46
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Originally Posted by ATC Watcher View Post
Some of the posts here showed a total misunderstanding of what the rules of the air are and what the old Chicago convention stipulates. You can issue sanctions against airlines, not against State flights. Civil ATC is not a police service, any flight entering your airspace with a flight plan will be given service, what happens afterwards is a matter for the authorities after landing. There are more worrying things happening right now than worrying if one Aeroflot aircraft is entering an FIR supposedly not being allowed into .We should be far more worried about the Western aircraft currently taking shortcuts around Ukrainian airspace when hell will break loose.
.
Quite correct. A flight plan is lodged and ATC only provide the service. What happens at destination is another issue. I remember vividly back in 1982 when KAL007 was shot down, their happened to be a Aeroflot IL-62 on the ground at JFK. It's wheels were chained and trucks parked around it, it wasn't going anywhere.
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Old 1st Mar 2022, 11:03
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Qantas is now using the southern route to/from LHR to Darwin:

https://australianaviation.com.au/20...on-flightpath/
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Old 1st Mar 2022, 13:31
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ATC Watcher ..... thank you for emphasizing the stuff actually important as comparrd to, single instances not too important to begin with.

I'm not getting out any citation to Convention, Annexes or other sources but - I'm pretty sure that the Convention on International Civil Aviation, known to all concerned as the Chicago Convention of 1944, separates State "aircraft" to which the Convention does not apply, from civil "aircraft" to which it does apply. (Whether it's useful to call it "old"....I'm leaving that for some other thread perhaps.)
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Old 1st Mar 2022, 15:43
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Originally Posted by WillowRun 6-3 View Post
I'm pretty sure that the ... Chicago Convention of 1944, separates State "aircraft" to which the Convention does not apply, from civil "aircraft" to which it does apply.
It is very simple. The Chicago Convention applies to aircraft which are registered by a Civil Aviation Authority (as defined in the Convention) of a member state. All other aircraft are excluded. It does not matter what activity is said aircraft engaged in, it falls under the Convention. However there are articles pertaining to different activities (commercial, government,SAR, humanitarian relief, etc ).
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Old 1st Mar 2022, 17:05
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Originally Posted by andrasz View Post
It is very simple. The Chicago Convention applies to aircraft which are registered by a Civil Aviation Authority (as defined in the Convention) of a member state. All other aircraft are excluded. It does not matter what activity is said aircraft engaged in, it falls under the Convention. However there are articles pertaining to different activities (commercial, government,SAR, humanitarian relief, etc ).
Not quite correct Andrasz. As you can see from this extract from the Convention, WillowRun was on the right track re differences between "state" aircraft and other civil registered aircraft. Some "state" aircraft are civil registered (i.e. police aircraft) while others are not (i.e. military aircraft) but all have special conditions attached with respect to operating into the sovereign airspace of another country (or "State" using ICAO and UN terminology).

Civil and State aircraft (Art. 3 of the Convention)

a) This Convention shall be applicable only to civil aircraft, and shall not be applicable to state aircraft.

b) Aircraft used in military, customs and police services shall be deemed to be state aircraft.

c) No state aircraft of a contracting State shall fly over the territory of another State or land thereon without authorization by special agreement or otherwise, and in accordance with the terms thereof.

d) The contracting States undertake, when issuing regulations for their state aircraft , that they will have due regard for the safety of navigation of civil aircraft.

Cheers,
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Old 1st Mar 2022, 18:33
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Reuters: Hundreds of Russia plane leases to be axed after Western sanctions
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Old 1st Mar 2022, 19:04
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Nordwind currently have a Moscow to Cancun flight in the air. Flight time of circa 13 hours due to the extended routing. Let’s hope they don’t need to divert en route or there will be problems!
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Old 1st Mar 2022, 20:40
  #92 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Atlantic Explorer View Post
Nordwind currently have a Moscow to Cancun flight in the air. Flight time of circa 13 hours due to the extended routing. Letís hope they donít need to divert en route or there will be problems!
What problems? if he is in emergency he will be given full assistance like any other aircraft in need. Let's stop this witch hunt.

As to the definition of what is a state aircraft , the 1944 definition moved with time into a grey area. Aircraft carrying head of State for instance can be considered State aircraft , even if a non military aircraft is being used..
A definition now widely accepted is the following :
State aircraft have been defined as all aircraft owned and operated by the government. This definition is very wide and is based on ownership. Consequently, not only typical State aircraft, such as military, police, or customs aircraft, but equally aircraft owned and operated by a public body are considered State aircraft.
,

.
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Old 1st Mar 2022, 20:46
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Originally Posted by ATC Watcher View Post
Let's stop this witch hunt.
Thanks, as that tendency (witch hunting) interferes with gleaning useful information as regards planes that may or may not get back off the ground in the near term.
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Old 2nd Mar 2022, 01:17
  #94 (permalink)  
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President Biden just closed US airspace to Russian aircraft in his state of the union address.
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Old 2nd Mar 2022, 08:23
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Originally Posted by ATC Watcher View Post
What problems? if he is in emergency he will be given full assistance like any other aircraft in need. Let's stop this witch hunt.

As to the definition of what is a state aircraft , the 1944 definition moved with time into a grey area. Aircraft carrying head of State for instance can be considered State aircraft , even if a non military aircraft is being used..
A definition now widely accepted is the following : ,

.
What witch hunt?? I never said they would be denied assistance but once theyíre on the ground thatís when the problems start. I think itís a bad idea to be flying a route where all your diversion airfields are in countries in which your banned from their airspace.
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Old 2nd Mar 2022, 12:27
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Are these airspace closures viable in the long term ? What is the end game for the West with respect to denial of airspace if Putin doesnít get out of Ukraine, which is the most likely scenario ?
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Old 3rd Mar 2022, 10:39
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Transport Canada is taking action with respect to Canada's airspace being closed to Russian aircraft:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north...nife-1.6370725
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Old 3rd Mar 2022, 15:30
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Originally Posted by Pilot DAR View Post
Transport Canada is taking action with respect to Canada's airspace being closed to Russian aircraft:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north...nife-1.6370725
.
"It appears that the plane and its passengers were on their way to Resolute, Nunavut, with the intention of taking a planned Arctic overland expedition in a large all-terrain utility vehicle,"
.
Hmm, any images of the large all-terrain utility vehicle?

The count for Russian intrusions into Canadian airspace stands at what now?

Well, there must be simple explanations, because

Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
No Russian civilian aircraft will intentionally enter closed airspace, ...
Edit: FR24 currently shows 15 aircraft on the ground for YZF. My limited access only displays two, both domestic [Canadian North B733 (C-FKCN) and Air Tindi DH6C (C-FOPN)]

IJM's Dassault Falcon 900EX (VP-CVS) from GVA arrived YZF Mar 1 11:59.

Last edited by EddyCurr; 3rd Mar 2022 at 16:01.
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Old 3rd Mar 2022, 16:24
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I'm confused.

Originally Posted by EddyCurr View Post
"It appears that the plane and its passengers were on their way to Resolute, Nunavut, with the intention of taking a planned Arctic overland expedition in a large all-terrain utility vehicle"
So was or wasn't this a Russian aircraft ?

Originally Posted by EddyCurr View Post
IJM's Dassault Falcon 900EX (VP-CVS) from GVA arrived YZF Mar 1 11:59.
IJM (International Jet Management GmbH) is, of course, an Austrian company.

This has all the makings of a non-story.
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Old 3rd Mar 2022, 16:57
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
This has all the makings of a non-story.
Unless chartered by Russians? "...Notice to Airmen (NOTAM) prohibiting Russian aircraft (owned, chartered, or certified)..."
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