777 Airshow Performance
Here is a nice one training for the Paris Air Show:
That's the one where the pilot in command swears they never exceeded 45 degrees from the horizontal. The 'vertical' effect is all camera angle and perspective.
Given that even a very light 787 has a thrust to weight ratio around ~.5, it would be hard to stay near vertical for any length of time.
Given that even a very light 787 has a thrust to weight ratio around ~.5, it would be hard to stay near vertical for any length of time.
That's the one where the pilot in command swears they never exceeded 45 degrees from the horizontal. The 'vertical' effect is all camera angle and perspective.
Given that even a very light 787 has a thrust to weight ratio around ~.5, it would be hard to stay near vertical for any length of time.
Given that even a very light 787 has a thrust to weight ratio around ~.5, it would be hard to stay near vertical for any length of time.
The 787-9 display at Farnborough in 2014 was equally impressive, with the "near-vertical" takeoff involving a pitch-up to almost 30°
A major difference between a military bomber being rolled, and a modern airliner being rolled is who is doing it, their recent aerobatic experience, and why they're doing it
Only half a speed-brake
… because they could not be caught.
At least two modern commercial aircraft evaluated unusual attitudes - 4 jet rolled and a small twin rolled and looped.
This was necessary due to unexpected behaviour with recently installed first-generation digital avionics during flight test - manoeuvres and ‘g’ loading. So much for ‘its only changing existing logic into digital computation’.
As recalled the issues involved rate of change of combinations of parameters used to determine the validity of input data - working / failed (or just not computed), EGPWS, ACAS pull up. Thence with a part-system shutdown, e.g. air-data; many other systems ‘failed’ because of the highly integrated design. cf 737 MAX
Also; digital interface for compass F28 / F100, average heading, 360 or 0 for North (360/2 = …); and F22 latitude, +- 180.
Although the capabilities of the aircraft were known these were not used in sales demonstrations. Nor in non-public pilot evaluations - don't frighten the customer, but many chief pilots were very concerned about a real engine shut down or full stall.
The hard sell was cost, range capability, load / field performance, and looking right for the task. Airshows involved tight displays, planned on 45 deg with 60 -90 over-bank, and pitch-up as available from power / aero D.
Photo shoots similarly depended on the context of prospective customer operations. Head of State … or … clandestine military ops; places more than manoeuvre.
At least two modern commercial aircraft evaluated unusual attitudes - 4 jet rolled and a small twin rolled and looped.
This was necessary due to unexpected behaviour with recently installed first-generation digital avionics during flight test - manoeuvres and ‘g’ loading. So much for ‘its only changing existing logic into digital computation’.
As recalled the issues involved rate of change of combinations of parameters used to determine the validity of input data - working / failed (or just not computed), EGPWS, ACAS pull up. Thence with a part-system shutdown, e.g. air-data; many other systems ‘failed’ because of the highly integrated design. cf 737 MAX
Also; digital interface for compass F28 / F100, average heading, 360 or 0 for North (360/2 = …); and F22 latitude, +- 180.
Although the capabilities of the aircraft were known these were not used in sales demonstrations. Nor in non-public pilot evaluations - don't frighten the customer, but many chief pilots were very concerned about a real engine shut down or full stall.
The hard sell was cost, range capability, load / field performance, and looking right for the task. Airshows involved tight displays, planned on 45 deg with 60 -90 over-bank, and pitch-up as available from power / aero D.
Photo shoots similarly depended on the context of prospective customer operations. Head of State … or … clandestine military ops; places more than manoeuvre.
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Continental Airlines had a Captain roll a B727-200 back in the mid seventies. The airplane was being ferried back to LAX at night no less, I believe from BOI. No pax, but a full complement of FA's onboard of which none noticed. The Captains was later terminated, and the other two crew were given some other disciplinary "counseling" after the FAA became aware of this stunt. The Capt tried to justify this behavior by calling attention to the fact that CAL had a Saberliner 65 that the flight instructor/check airman rolled on several occasions.
The 727 had a very high roll rate with half speed brakes and 250kts which made this an easy maneuver to accomplish.
The 727 had a very high roll rate with half speed brakes and 250kts which made this an easy maneuver to accomplish.
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I'm sure that even the Sabreliner was not intended for rolls, though, being largely based upon the Sabre Jet fighter, it was probably amply able to be rolled by a competent pilot - like maybe a former military pilot. I have no qualification to comment on rolling airliners, other than to say that none are certified for it. Aerobatics are one of those things where if you do it right, and nothing goes wrong, it may be able to be done within a normal category airplane's structural limits. But, if you get it wrong, or something goes wrong, it goes so wrong, so fast that the plane is damaged, or it's an flight break up or smoking hole. Flight test is different thing, and rarely done in front of an invited crowd of spectators.
Several accidents of non aerobatic types being flown aerobatically both for "fun" and at airshows, come to mind. What might have worked, didn't. A few attempted aerobatics in unapproved types were insurance claims, for an airplane later found to be bent. All the company pilots said "It wasn't me" - well... it was two of you!
To me, a good sales demonstration opportunity is blurred if the demonstration is including things that I'm going to be told I cannot do with the product if I buy it! Then why demonstrate it!?! It's like the pointless car ads, which show the shiny new car screaming through the desert, with a cloud of dust growing from drifted turns and full stroke suspension travel - and the words at the bottom say "Professional driver, closed course". Okay, then do you have any other cars I should consider, as I'm not a professional driver, and I'd like to drive on public roads!
Several accidents of non aerobatic types being flown aerobatically both for "fun" and at airshows, come to mind. What might have worked, didn't. A few attempted aerobatics in unapproved types were insurance claims, for an airplane later found to be bent. All the company pilots said "It wasn't me" - well... it was two of you!
To me, a good sales demonstration opportunity is blurred if the demonstration is including things that I'm going to be told I cannot do with the product if I buy it! Then why demonstrate it!?! It's like the pointless car ads, which show the shiny new car screaming through the desert, with a cloud of dust growing from drifted turns and full stroke suspension travel - and the words at the bottom say "Professional driver, closed course". Okay, then do you have any other cars I should consider, as I'm not a professional driver, and I'd like to drive on public roads!
"Continental Airlines had a Captain roll a B727-200 back in the mid seventies. The airplane was being ferried back to LAX at night no less, I believe from BOI. No pax, but a full complement of FA's onboard of which none noticed."
Roll or Barrel Roll?
Roll or Barrel Roll?
Several accidents of non aerobatic types being flown aerobatically both for "fun" and at airshows, come to mind. What might have worked, didn't. A few attempted aerobatics in unapproved types were insurance claims, for an airplane later found to be bent. All the company pilots said "It wasn't me" - well... it was two of you!
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Yes, I think that that B-52 pilot forgot for a moment that B-52's don't have ailerons at the wingtips. It was the wrong time to forget that, just when he needed them....
It wasn’t just the airplane beyond its limits. The aircraft commander was writing a check that his balance was not sufficient to cover.
I'm sure that even the Sabreliner was not intended for rolls
Still had it at 91 years of age.
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There is a rather well known story about a certain well known Lear pilot out of VNY, who while taking Andy Williams to LAS rolled the Lear 24 while Williams was taking a pee. Supposedly didn't spill a drop.
None of this is “flying outside the envelope” or “exceeding limitations”.
Maximum performance take off, no assumed temp no derate.
Don’t forget that twins are certified to have an engine failure while still on the runway, continue to accelerate and climb out, all at max take off weight.
They are stupendously overpowered and therefore these airshows look outrageous.
It’s not really….that’s just what the thing can do…..empty.
Maximum performance take off, no assumed temp no derate.
Don’t forget that twins are certified to have an engine failure while still on the runway, continue to accelerate and climb out, all at max take off weight.
They are stupendously overpowered and therefore these airshows look outrageous.
It’s not really….that’s just what the thing can do…..empty.
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None of this is “flying outside the envelope” or “exceeding limitations”.
aerobatic maneuver means a maneuver where a change in the attitude of an aircraft results in a bank angle greater than 60 degrees, an abnormal attitude or an abnormal acceleration not incidental to normal flying;
