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Dubai near disaster..?

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Dubai near disaster..?

Old 17th Jan 2022, 03:06
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Originally Posted by megan View Post
We know from experience that doesn't always work well.
Well enough for millions of departures each year. Whatever system you build, humans will find a way to defeat it. Is it worth the cost? After Tenerife, changing the R/T and training were solutions, not technology.
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Old 17th Jan 2022, 09:50
  #62 (permalink)  

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and " line up and wait".
And the banning of the word "clear" or "cleared" except for "cleared for take-off" or "cleared for landing". It removed the possible misunderstanding in for example "cleared to line up and wait"
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Old 17th Jan 2022, 10:15
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Originally Posted by RudderTrimZero View Post
It's one of the oldest challenges in aviation. You have to learn to associate an action with every important clearance. A clearance can be a trigger to write something or select something. Use a pen (remember those?). I personally use the MCDU scratchpad. "Taxi A, B, C1 to and hold short of 27L" becomes A/B/C1//27L. When I'm lining up, I will ad a /LU. Takeoff clearance is definitely the selection of the "Takeoff" light on Airbus. On Boeing, I don't know what you might use, but for gods sake, choose one!
Landing lights on when cleared for take-off had worked for everything I’ve flown over the last 40 years, starting with Cessna 150 and ending up on 737. I know it’s not a wide body but the principal is the same.
however the problem might arrive if a company SOP is landing lights on for line up, and they have a punitive safety policy and you never know if there’s a trainer or management pilot opposite you at the other intersection…. No idea if that applies to EK though, although the number of times I’ve been blinded by their landing lights perhaps it does.
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Old 17th Jan 2022, 12:27
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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In my time it was : Strobes on at line up and Landing lights on when cleared for take off.
Used to cross 09R/27L at Heathrow quite often and I don't recall seeing landing lights dazzeling us from the next one lined up for take off.
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Old 17th Jan 2022, 15:01
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No amount of fiddling with landing lights is going to stop an accidental take-off without clearance. I think the status lights are a good start to solving the problem.
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Old 17th Jan 2022, 16:24
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Originally Posted by RudderTrimZero View Post
It's one of the oldest challenges in aviation. You have to learn to associate an action with every important clearance. A clearance can be a trigger to write something or select something. Use a pen (remember those?). I personally use the MCDU scratchpad. "Taxi A, B, C1 to and hold short of 27L" becomes A/B/C1//27L. When I'm lining up, I will ad a /LU. Takeoff clearance is definitely the selection of the "Takeoff" light on Airbus. On Boeing, I don't know what you might use, but for gods sake, choose one!
Small tip FWIW. I do the same, but I use spaces between the taxiways, and the slash for hold short, so "A B C1 /27L". I know it's unlikely you will use 27L to taxi, but I like the extra reminder.
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Old 17th Jan 2022, 18:05
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How long will EK luck remain ? so many misfits ....
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Old 17th Jan 2022, 21:16
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And Ryanair!
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Old 17th Jan 2022, 22:07
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AIM 4-3-23 : the use of aircraft lights
g. When entering the departure runway for takeoff or to “line up and wait,” all lights, except for landing lights, should be illuminated to make the aircraft conspicuous to ATC and other aircraft on approach. Landing lights should be turned on when takeoff clearance is received or when commencing takeoff roll at an airport without an operating control tower.

In my first 33 years of professional
flying, the company SOP was for the STROBES be selected to ON when cleared to POSITION, then the LANDING LIGHTS to be selected ON for TAKEOFF.

Then in my 3 years of flying in the Middle East, the company SOP was to select ALL lights ON when cleared to POSITION.

I did not like doing this because it is wrong.

I will still not accept a crossing clearance if the aircraft way down at the end has the LANDING LIGHTS ON.
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Old 17th Jan 2022, 22:26
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Originally Posted by parkfell View Post
If as appears the case the CVR was overwritten, does software exist
to ‘dig deep’ & recover more than the last current 2 hours ?
CVR will have been over-written but the ATC tapes will still be available. That will at least go some way to determine if a clearance was issued, or if a confusing RT conversation led to an unchallenged error.
As real bonus, we still have all flight deck occupants around to tell their side of the incident.
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Old 17th Jan 2022, 22:44
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Originally Posted by 787PIC View Post
And Ryanair!
Are you suggesting that Ryanair's safety record is cause for concern ?
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Old 17th Jan 2022, 23:18
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Apologies haven’t read all the comments. Could it have been as simple as EK524 lined up. Then EK568 was given clearance to cross which EK524 took as theirs? They were in position expecting EK5.., “heard it” and went. C/S confusion is a nightmare around DXB.
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Old 17th Jan 2022, 23:22
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Originally Posted by 3Greens
3Greens , 13th Jan 2022 18:30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kennytheking
I would have thought that the runway status lights that they have in the USA would be very effective to prevent this kind of event. Should be mandatory throughout the world.


They can be useful yes, but not a great deal of use in the glaring Middle East sunlight to be honest in the middle of the day
The LED lighting on the runways at DXB is bright enough even at midday on June 21st!
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Old 18th Jan 2022, 07:03
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Originally Posted by PFD View Post
Hi. I thought CVR recording time had gone up to 10 hours now? plus they have to have their own power supply. Perhaps you don't have to retrofit it. i would have thought though, that a failure to obtain Takeoff clearance, would necessitate the company pulling the CVR immediately for analysis, to clear or otherwise the pilots.
ATC recordings are also available!
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Old 18th Jan 2022, 07:05
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Originally Posted by Fog Ducker View Post
AIM 4-3-23 : the use of aircraft lights
g. When entering the departure runway for takeoff or to “line up and wait,” all lights, except for landing lights, should be illuminated to make the aircraft conspicuous to ATC and other aircraft on approach. Landing lights should be turned on when takeoff clearance is received or when commencing takeoff roll at an airport without an operating control tower.

In my first 33 years of professional
flying, the company SOP was for the STROBES be selected to ON when cleared to POSITION, then the LANDING LIGHTS to be selected ON for TAKEOFF.

Then in my 3 years of flying in the Middle East, the company SOP was to select ALL lights ON when cleared to POSITION.

I did not like doing this because it is wrong.

I will still not accept a crossing clearance if the aircraft way down at the end has the LANDING LIGHTS ON.
I believe that SOP changed awhile ago.
The strobe lights should have been visible to the departing crew, and also as an aircraft the size of a 777 crosses you lose sight of a large number of runway and centreline lights.
Many possible reasons, mixed lang/culture flight deck, fatigue, press on mindset, take off clearance already received on previous flights, crossing clearance on 30L confusing the brain etc but there was two guys up front so I cannot understand why it wasn't questioned and confirmed its what crews have been trained to do, if there is doubt/there is no doubt ask!
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Old 18th Jan 2022, 07:17
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Originally Posted by Fog Ducker View Post
AIM 4-3-23 : the use of aircraft lights
g. When entering the departure runway for takeoff or to “line up and wait,” all lights, except for landing lights, should be illuminated to make the aircraft conspicuous to ATC and other aircraft on approach. Landing lights should be turned on when takeoff clearance is received or when commencing takeoff roll at an airport without an operating control tower.

In my first 33 years of professional
flying, the company SOP was for the STROBES be selected to ON when cleared to POSITION, then the LANDING LIGHTS to be selected ON for TAKEOFF.

Then in my 3 years of flying in the Middle East, the company SOP was to select ALL lights ON when cleared to POSITION.

I did not like doing this because it is wrong.

I will still not accept a crossing clearance if the aircraft way down at the end has the LANDING LIGHTS ON.
Aircraft have landed on top of other aircraft that were on the runway, it might have been prevented if those on the runway had all their lights on. Also the AIM isn't regulatory in the US NVM the ME, you not accepting a legal clearance because of a difference of opinion does not help. I follow my companies SOP.
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Old 18th Jan 2022, 07:57
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Originally Posted by escapedATCO View Post
ATC recordings are also available!
DO you mean to the enquiry or to the general public?
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Old 18th Jan 2022, 09:12
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Originally Posted by mahogany bob View Post
COMMUNICATION PROBLEMS

I have always thought that a useful ( cheap) aid would be a training tape with transcripts of ATC from around the world which one could listen to and mug up on before going to a new environment in order to get used to accents etc.

Food for thought??
Not really transcripts of ATC and standard phraseology, however ICAO Has published rated speech samples used in the training of English Language Proficiency Assessors/Interlocutors.

These can be accessed at https://cfapps.icao.int/RSSTA/ and give an overview of different English Language Proficiency Levels.

It may assist in understanding the different regional accents and Language Proficiency Levels.
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Old 18th Jan 2022, 10:37
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Originally Posted by Chris2303 View Post
DO you mean to the enquiry or to the general public?
Nothing official released to the general public
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Old 18th Jan 2022, 18:32
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After Tenerife, changing the R/T and training were solutions, not technology
Well, there is still a problem as this incident shows. Remember standing in the terminal at West Palm Beach and watching a Shorts 360 and a Gulfstream lined up on crossing runways and both beginning their take off rolls, sat there transfixed waiting for the two to meet at the intersection, but both aborted in good time, tower on the ball I assume.
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