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Dubai near disaster..?

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Dubai near disaster..?

Old 15th Jan 2022, 17:04
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COMMUNICATION PROBLEMS



I donít know that this was a factor in this incident but I have always thought poor communications has the potential to cause major accidents !

How often have you been uncertain of clearances given by ATC ?

Poor English ,regional accents, jargon,speed talking,background noise,receiver problems and general casualness being a possible contributor!



At a busy airport remembering and reading back a clearance can be a embarrassment - who wants to go to the sin bin!

If you are flying regularly in a certain environment you become acclimatised to the words and accents/ comms is less of a problem but after a long layoff ie now -and perhaps operating in a strange country the brain does not react as quickly and mistakes can easily be made- everything is more difficult - see currency thread.



Crew co-ordination obviously helps - but in a situation where perhaps you have a senior captain and a new under confident co-pilot- would the co-pilot be bold enough to question a captainís action in case it makes him look slow/ foolish!

i.e if ATC is noisy /busy and a captain turns confidently onto the runway and piles on the power would a young co- pilot say Ďhang oní ?



I have always thought that a useful ( cheap) aid would be a training tape with transcripts of ATC from around the world which one could listen to and mug up on before going to a new environment in order to get used to accents etc.

Food for thought??
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Old 15th Jan 2022, 18:12
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Captainship

I donít think that anyone sitting in the front row, has any right to be there, if they canít voice a concern.

Clearly, if they didnít get a clearance, they should not have moved the aircraft, nor let it move without a challenge.

Should the cvr reveal an ignored or overruled challenge, then there might be cultural issues at Emirates in need of resolving.

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Old 15th Jan 2022, 18:14
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Originally Posted by double_barrel
It sometimes seems strange that despite such levels of automation, redundancy and independent checking by multiple different systems on both aircraft and ATC, designed to catch even fantastically unlikely errors, some absolutely critical information is transmitted between the two by voice alone. And then itís held in short term memory in human wetware before being being fed into a/c systems.
How true. You can put all the automation you want on the ground you still depend ultimately on communicating that info via R/T and there are the two main hurdles : Phraseology and crossed transmissions . In both Tenerife and Uberlingen the ultimate calls that would have most probably prevented the collisions were blocked out by crossed transmissions and were not heard by either the other pilot and the controller. and in both cases correct phraseology had not been used and was a contributing factor.
couldnít there at least be a status flag on both a/c and ATC showing released for takeoff or not?
This will be very expensive to fit all various systems currently in use in different airports around the world and will not help in all cases. In Linate (SAS/Citation ) , it was an unqualified pilot under LVP combined to deficient taxi way markings and in Vnukovo ( the DA50 ) a snow removal driver under alcohol influence and runway markings ( no stop bars on intersecting runways) . RWSL is probably the best system around at the moment , however it is a pure US/FAA system , still defined as an advisory system (*) and only installed in 20 airports in the US. and as far as I know is not for export ( waiting to be corrected if I am wrong)
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Old 15th Jan 2022, 18:29
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Originally Posted by Equivocal
Although many aspects are good, there is one potential problem with some of the suggestions about RWSL, particularly if it is only installed at an airport where it is perceived that 'there is a need'. The mindset with RWSL is that when the red lights are off, we can cross/roll, when you then arrive at an intersection or line up on a runway where there is no need, at least half the protection of the system is lost. There is an additional gotcha if you are used to operating from airports with RWSL and then find yourself somewhere with a less sophisticated system, the usual mindset can be a problem.
My take on RWSL is: to cross a runway or takeoff, you need a) a clearance from ATC, b) to be confident from your own assessment that it is safe and c) that RWSL haven’t activated, telling you that there is (or will be shortly) something on the runway that you may not be aware of. I see it as a last fail-safe or backup to procedures already in place, similar to TCAS. Does it encourage a lack of rigour? I don’t know but I would guess the safety benefit is greater?

I've also got a slight hesitation about the control systems, which are driven by ASMGCS data, and rules about when the RWSL is activated - having had some involvement in setting up RIMCAS (Runway Incursion Monitoring and Alerting System) at a pretty simple airport, getting the rules correct so there are no false alerts is not easy. With RIMCAS, the alerts are 'only' raised to ATC and humans can assess whether the alert is legitimate, although there is often little time for this (or, worse, an alert is ignored because 'it always goes off when this happens'), RWSL, as I understand it, is fully autonomous - the system is most useful at complex airports where the ruleset which does not produce erroneous operation will be difficult to compile. And then, of course, one day ATC will say, "Ignore the THLs, clear for take-off". The tech-savvy will now start talking about AI......
Valid points but I think the autonomy is a big positive, for the day when all the holes in the cheese line up. Would have made what happened in DXB into a complete non-incident? Ignoring the THLs would be like ignoring an RA, GPWS or RAAS alert... Last chance to avoid a potential disaster.

RWSL is probably the best system around at the moment , however it is a pure US/FAA system , still defined as an advisory system (*) and only installed in 20 airports in the US. and as far as I know is not for export ( waiting to be corrected if I am wrong)
I was under the impression that it was installed at Paris CDG; if it isn’t the system is a dead ringer and is called RWSL (and if it was truly a French design it would be called LSRW or something...)
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Old 15th Jan 2022, 18:49
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I was under the impression that it was installed at Paris CDG; if it isn’t the system is a dead ringer and is called RWSL
and you are correct, thanks . makes me look for the doc and I found it :

The RWSL system was deployed at Paris-CDG on the Northern inner runway (09R/27L) on the 24th of October 2016 and on the Southern inner runway (08L/26R) on the 23rd of May 2017 RWSL is a type of autonomous runway incursion warning system (ARIWS) as defined in ICAO Annex 14 aerodromes. Also deployed in the USA and in Japan, France participated, together with Japan, the USA and other worldwide experts in criteria harmonization, promoted by ICAO, to ensure worldwide and consistent operational use where implemented.
So my bad, it is not a pure US system and we are going to see more of then hopefully in the future., however I doubt it is cheap and will therefore probably be only restricted for very large airports I fear. .
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Old 15th Jan 2022, 21:22
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Originally Posted by Warren Peace
Should the cvr reveal an ignored or overruled challenge ...
But of course they continued to destination, making sure that the CVR was conveniently overwritten...

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Old 15th Jan 2022, 21:47
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If, as reported, no ATC takeoff clearance was issued, it won't need a CVR to confirm that.
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Old 16th Jan 2022, 00:35
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How about a big pair of big lights at the runway line up point, one red, one green, with the green saying "clear to take off", not necessarily said tongue in cheek.
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Old 16th Jan 2022, 01:21
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Originally Posted by megan
How about a big pair of big lights at the runway line up point, one red, one green, with the green saying "clear to take off", not necessarily said tongue in cheek.
Why not just have a challenge and response R/T between a controller and two or four well-rested, well paid, qualified pilots and simulators to practice in?
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Old 16th Jan 2022, 06:04
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The crew obviously THOUGHT that they had take off clearance - the question is why?
Perhaps they mistook departure clearance for t/o clearance?
All should be revealed in the inquiry.
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Old 16th Jan 2022, 06:16
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Originally Posted by FatPilot
Yes indeed. Many such tales abound.


I am somewhat surprised they were able to take off without having the Captain's seat-cover replaced. After a high speed RTO on instruction by the Tower with another 777 looming in the windscreen I'm not sure I'd be in the right state of mind to continue the pairing, not least because the outcome is almost assured. What did Ops have to say? Still, plenty of time to be sacked after the duty is completed.

The luck of the devil continues: DXB, JNB, MEL, DXB, DME, JFK, DXB, DXB.....
I know different airlines have different cultures etc, but If I had continued a duty after doing a high speed reject due to a lack Of clearance, some questions would be asked about that decision. I would certainly be returning to the gate and removing myself from the duty. You'd be thinking about it all day leaving yourself open for a bigger stuff up. But it is Emirates so, "complete the mission then return for firing squad at Dawn" mentality is hardly surprising.
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Old 16th Jan 2022, 07:25
  #52 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
If, as reported, no ATC takeoff clearance was issued, it won't need a CVR to confirm that.
If as appears the case the CVR was overwritten, does software exist
to ‘dig deep’ & recover more than the last current 2 hours ?
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Old 16th Jan 2022, 07:38
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Originally Posted by parkfell
If as appears the case the CVR was overwritten, does software exist
to Ďdig deepí & recover more than the last current 2 hours ?
No, if it is overwritten, it is gone.
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Old 16th Jan 2022, 08:52
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Originally Posted by mahogany bob
COMMUNICATION PROBLEMS



I donít know that this was a factor in this incident but I have always thought poor communications has the potential to cause major accidents !

How often have you been uncertain of clearances given by ATC ?

Poor English ,regional accents, jargon,speed talking,background noise,receiver problems and general casualness being a possible contributor!



At a busy airport remembering and reading back a clearance can be a embarrassment - who wants to go to the sin bin!

If you are flying regularly in a certain environment you become acclimatised to the words and accents/ comms is less of a problem but after a long layoff ie now -and perhaps operating in a strange country the brain does not react as quickly and mistakes can easily be made- everything is more difficult - see currency thread.



Crew co-ordination obviously helps - but in a situation where perhaps you have a senior captain and a new under confident co-pilot- would the co-pilot be bold enough to question a captainís action in case it makes him look slow/ foolish!

i.e if ATC is noisy /busy and a captain turns confidently onto the runway and piles on the power would a young co- pilot say Ďhang oní ?



I have always thought that a useful ( cheap) aid would be a training tape with transcripts of ATC from around the world which one could listen to and mug up on before going to a new environment in order to get used to accents etc.

Food for thought??
At home base, I doubt the crew would be seriously unfamiliar with accents and phrasing ?
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Old 16th Jan 2022, 10:02
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Originally Posted by The AvgasDinosaur
At home base, I doubt the crew would be seriously unfamiliar with accents and phrasing ?
How often have you received, eg, an instruction to line up and wait, acknowledged it, then done a bunch of other things and as you get to the hold short line, suddenly think, hang on were we told to line up and wait? I wonder if that sort of thing is more likely at your base when the same voice gives you exactly the same instructions that you have heard 100s of times before so that your brain somehow struggles to distinguish todayís sequence from all the others and starts to fill in gaps.
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Old 16th Jan 2022, 10:09
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It's one of the oldest challenges in aviation. You have to learn to associate an action with every important clearance. A clearance can be a trigger to write something or select something. Use a pen (remember those?). I personally use the MCDU scratchpad. "Taxi A, B, C1 to and hold short of 27L" becomes A/B/C1//27L. When I'm lining up, I will ad a /LU. Takeoff clearance is definitely the selection of the "Takeoff" light on Airbus. On Boeing, I don't know what you might use, but for gods sake, choose one!
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Old 16th Jan 2022, 11:21
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Why not just have a challenge and response R/T between a controller and two or four well-rested, well paid, qualified pilots and simulators to practice in?
We know from experience that doesn't always work well.



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Old 16th Jan 2022, 13:52
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Hi. I thought CVR recording time had gone up to 10 hours now? plus they have to have their own power supply. Perhaps you don't have to retrofit it. i would have thought though, that a failure to obtain Takeoff clearance, would necessitate the company pulling the CVR immediately for analysis, to clear or otherwise the pilots.
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Old 16th Jan 2022, 14:42
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Originally Posted by megan
We know from experience that doesn't always work well.
True. That accident gave us:
CRM
cockpit gradient awareness
Ēready for departureĒ
silent cockpit concept

and more. Regards, klm-pilot.

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Old 16th Jan 2022, 20:01
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Originally Posted by fox niner
True. That accident gave us:
CRM
cockpit gradient awareness
Ēready for departureĒ
silent cockpit concept

and more. Regards, klm-pilot.
and " line up and wait" which took may years to be accepted by the US/FAA...
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