Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

FAA ADs re 5G interference

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

FAA ADs re 5G interference

Old 14th Dec 2021, 10:36
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: England
Posts: 527
Received 498 Likes on 212 Posts
Originally Posted by fdr

In spite of the perceptiveness of IATA and IFALPA in NOV 2020, we get 5G on the same band as the RA's???? WTF!
Just to be clear, they are not in the same band. They are in adjacent allocations, with a small guard band in between.

For interference to be avoided, two conditions need to be met. 1) the 5G equipment must not radiate significantly outside its allocated band, 2) the airborne equipment must must not be significantly sensitive to transmissions outside its allocated band. And of course the same conditions apply in reverse.

It is the task of frequency administrations to specify operating limits accordingly - and this must be done on an international basis.
Sallyann1234 is offline  
Old 14th Dec 2021, 13:55
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Europe
Posts: 166
Received 4 Likes on 3 Posts
So, if a Telecom needs to put 5G tower under approach path, they are free to do it, and FAA will merely tell everybody that from the date of installation, CAT I / II / III is effectively not available at this airport anymore. I always thought that such action (interfering with A/C navigation equipment) is something that terrorists would do, but now this is perfectly legal ??!! World going insane.
hoistop is offline  
Old 14th Dec 2021, 16:01
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: England
Posts: 527
Received 498 Likes on 212 Posts
Originally Posted by hoistop
So, if a Telecom needs to put 5G tower under approach path, they are free to do it, and FAA will merely tell everybody that from the date of installation, CAT I / II / III is effectively not available at this airport anymore. I always thought that such action (interfering with A/C navigation equipment) is something that terrorists would do, but now this is perfectly legal ??!! World going insane.
The national radio regulator can impose whatever conditions it sees fit on the cellular operator's licenced operations in order to protect other services. So it could in theory say that there will be no 5G operation with x km of every airport.
Naturally the operators will resist this strongly as it would create holes in their service coverage (and airports are major concentrations of mobile radio use.)
I'm not party to internal US affairs but this would seem to be an issue between FCC and FAA, each being subject to different political pressures.

But again this is an international issue and other countries may treat it differently, within the International Radio Regulations to which each country subscribes.

Last edited by Sallyann1234; 14th Dec 2021 at 16:14.
Sallyann1234 is offline  
Old 14th Dec 2021, 17:42
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: On a good day - at sea
Posts: 267
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Originally Posted by Sallyann1234
.......... it could in theory say that there will be no 5G operation with x km of every airport.
That's what Canada has done.
nnc0 is offline  
Old 14th Dec 2021, 20:00
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Germany
Posts: 140
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by nnc0
That's what Canada has done.
Hi, thatīs cool...but does it help the helicopters that are flying low everywhere ?
Donīt know.
Klauss is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2021, 00:05
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: On a good day - at sea
Posts: 267
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Originally Posted by Klauss
Hi, thatīs cool...but does it help the helicopters that are flying low everywhere ?
Donīt know.
  • a national antenna down-tilt requirement to protect aircraft used in low altitude military operations, search and rescue operations and medical evacuations all over the country
Canadian Source document is here

Decision on Amendments to SRSP-520, Technical Requirement for Fixed and/or Mobile Systems, Including Flexible Use Broadband Systems, in the Band 3450-3650 MHz - Spectrum management and telecommunications
nnc0 is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2021, 09:12
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 1998
Location: Mesopotamos
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
  • a national antenna down-tilt requirement to protect aircraft used in low altitude military operations, search and rescue operations and medical evacuations all over the country
That's interesting considering the 5G signal is beam forming (with a couple of lobes near the antenna). Perhaps they mean "software" down-tilt but I don't know if the 5G tech is that far developed. Theoretically it should be possible to fix this issue in software for antennae located near airports as it's all just crazy mathematics anyway.

As someone who has worked with the greedy mobile telecoms, I can assure you they will fight tooth and nail to maintain their market advantage, but they also understand liability too well so I am pretty sure this whole issue was unforeseen by them as it takes years and much expense to get their wares out to market, and now the bureaucrats have been left to sort it out the only way they know how.
cattletruck is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2021, 11:26
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: back out to Grasse
Posts: 557
Received 28 Likes on 12 Posts
Perception:

So the guy in seat 1A decides to text the cab company on his new 5G phone while on finals to 27R.
The potential for this scenario must be much higher and though the transmission is at a lower power, close proximity to the goon show up front should have resulted in a more terminal arrival.
Are instances of equipment degradation more than is reported?

IG
Imagegear is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2021, 11:55
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: England
Posts: 527
Received 498 Likes on 212 Posts
The classic cellular base/tower has antennas with a downtilt to limit the interference potential to other cells. However this will not always be the case depending on local topography.

As for the guy in 1A, his phone will not be using the new frequency band if it cannot receive a signal in that band. It may still be using 5G on a lower frequency band, but the interference potential is due to the frequency of the transmission, not the modulation method. 3G or 4G could also cause interference if on the 'wrong' frequency. Also bear in mind that the GPWS antenna is pointing downwards, so relatively immune to signals from inside the plane.

Sallyann1234 is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2021, 14:18
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: back out to Grasse
Posts: 557
Received 28 Likes on 12 Posts
Thanks,

I should be relieved but somehow I think the thought will cross my mind at the wrong time -
Imagegear is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2021, 19:14
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 783
Received 31 Likes on 26 Posts
Originally Posted by Klauss
Hi, thatīs cool...but does it help the helicopters that are flying low everywhere ? Donīt know.
In the US, no. There appears to be more issues with the rotorcraft side given a number of approved helicopter approaches operate in prime 5G territory and especially in the GOM. With plans to expand 5G service to over 50,000+ square miles of the GOM this could negate most of the OSAPs used for deepwater ops as they require an operative radar altimeter. And given the only place to put 5G towers is on the same platforms the helicopters operate it will definitely cause some issues. Time will tell.
wrench1 is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2021, 19:55
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Germany
Posts: 140
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by wrench1
In the US, no. There appears to be more issues with the rotorcraft side given a number of approved helicopter approaches operate in prime 5G territory and especially in the GOM. With plans to expand 5G service to over 50,000+ square miles of the GOM this could negate most of the OSAPs used for deepwater ops as they require an operative radar altimeter. And given the only place to put 5G towers is on the same platforms the helicopters operate it will definitely cause some issues. Time will tell.
Hm.... so, what about testing ? Aviation Week shows pictures of test-chambers for satellites and military antennas. Is it possible that a bit of time in such chambers could be booked to see what happens with real equipment ? Not good to do the testing in the wild outdoors....the city-canyons and so forth.
Klauss is offline  
Old 15th Dec 2021, 21:27
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 783
Received 31 Likes on 26 Posts
Originally Posted by Klauss
Hm.... so, what about testing ? Aviation Week shows pictures of test-chambers for satellites and military antennas. Is it possible that a bit of time in such chambers could be booked to see what happens with real equipment ? Not good to do the testing in the wild outdoors....the city-canyons and so forth.
FYI: this issue didn't simply arise when the ADs were released. The 5G/radar altimeter issue has been under scrutiny for some time now so there are a number of studies out there. Here's one presentation released last year. Time will tell which direction it will take but the implications will be global especially on the heavy plank-wing side. But from what I see there is currently no cheap/easy aircraft operational solution at hand for this issue at least on this side of the pond.
https://www.rtca.org/wp-content/uplo...Altimeters.pdf
wrench1 is offline  
Old 16th Dec 2021, 05:19
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Germany
Posts: 140
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by wrench1
FYI: this issue didn't simply arise when the ADs were released. The 5G/radar altimeter issue has been under scrutiny for some time now so there are a number of studies out there. Here's one presentation released last year. Time will tell which direction it will take but the implications will be global especially on the heavy plank-wing side. But from what I see there is currently no cheap/easy aircraft operational solution at hand for this issue at least on this side of the pond.
https://www.rtca.org/wp-content/uplo...Altimeters.pdf
Great presentation. I live in Europe, and things are a bit different here. Found this compact explanation on the web: https://bit.ly/3m916uq So, our EASA is a bit more relaxed than the FAA. However, I think they shouldnīt be. Euro-Airlines are flying to the US, on occasion and the telecoms industry here isnīt going to stand still in their efforts to get products to market.
Klauss is offline  
Old 16th Dec 2021, 12:15
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: England
Posts: 527
Received 498 Likes on 212 Posts
From informal contacts with the UK regulator OFCOM, it seems their present attitude is not to panic but to keep a close watching brief on the situation.

The four UK cellular operators are busy building up their 5G networks, but as far as I can see none of them are yet operating in the 3.5 GHz band around e.g. LHR or LGW. This could of course change at any time as they compete to gain value from their licence investments.

OFCOM have also been consulting on possible new uses within the 3800 - 4200 MHz band which is primarily used for satellite services. This of course is immediately adjacent to the air radar band.
Sallyann1234 is offline  
Old 18th Dec 2021, 19:24
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Doncaster
Age: 50
Posts: 295
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Sallyann1234
From informal contacts with the UK regulator OFCOM, it seems their present attitude is not to panic but to keep a close watching brief on the situation.

The four UK cellular operators are busy building up their 5G networks, but as far as I can see none of them are yet operating in the 3.5 GHz band around e.g. LHR or LGW. This could of course change at any time as they compete to gain value from their licence investments.

OFCOM have also been consulting on possible new uses within the 3800 - 4200 MHz band which is primarily used for satellite services. This of course is immediately adjacent to the air radar band.
I'm not sure I would say busy. The four UK networks have been struggling to roll out 5G - UK wants to be a market leader, but government meddling has broken the UK market. It is impossible to say whether the lack of 5G midband is due to airports, because they have not got there yet, or simply in the too hard to tick box. Some of the in-airport coverage is also delivered in a very bespoke way, which I suspect will take time to sort out.
davidjpowell is offline  
Old 21st Dec 2021, 11:41
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: England
Posts: 527
Received 498 Likes on 212 Posts
BBC report today

Boeing and Airbus warn US over 5G safety concerns

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59737194
Sallyann1234 is offline  
Old 22nd Dec 2021, 19:52
  #38 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Within AM radio broadcast range of downtown Chicago
Age: 72
Posts: 905
Received 36 Likes on 14 Posts
At least they're talking

Airlines for America and two other major trade associations have announced that they're trying to resolve the 5G service introduction issues (Aerospace Industries Ass'n and Cellular Telecommunications Industry Ass'n).

link to announcement:
Statement from A4A, AIA and CTIA – Airlines For America

"WASHINGTON, DECEMBER 22, 2021 – The following statement was issued today by A4A, AIA and CTIA:
We are pleased that after productive discussions we will be working together to share the available data from all parties to identify the specific areas of concern for aviation. The best technical experts from across both industries will be working collectively to identify a path forward, in coordination with the FAA and FCC.

Our belief is that by working collaboratively in good faith on a data-driven solution, we can achieve our shared goal of deploying 5G while preserving aviation safety."
WillowRun 6-3 is offline  
Old 23rd Dec 2021, 07:22
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Germany
Posts: 140
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
real tests 5G vs. helicopter ??

Hi, I found this: https://www.iliad.fr/en/actualites/a...-drisquage-124
In French, dated 3/09/2021 : https://www.universfreebox.com/artic...quage-de-la-5g

Looks like the French did at least a bit of testing. Donīt have more details, but the movie makes a good impression that makes me ask for more of the same, maybe different helicopter, different 5G installation, and, of course, fixed wing aircraft.
Klauss is offline  
Old 23rd Dec 2021, 08:54
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: England
Posts: 527
Received 498 Likes on 212 Posts
Unfortunately that test - or at least the report of it - is of no use without a mention of the frequencies that were used for the 5G transmissions. Were they in the new band 3.6 to 3.8GHz* which is of concern due to being nearer to the aeronautical allocation, or in the lower cellular bands e.g. 2.6GHz?

It is the potential conflict from nearly adjacent frequencies that is critical. 5G cellular in the lower bands, which has been in use for some time, poses no risk to airborne operations.

* individual national allocations may be different.
Sallyann1234 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.