B-737 Cargo Plane down in Hawaii
pistongone
Assuming reports and flight data are accurate regarding final position, wreckage should be well inside the 100 fathom curve. Tides and currents in this area are benign and underwater visibility is good. This should be a relatively easy recovery of the pieces of interest.
Assuming reports and flight data are accurate regarding final position, wreckage should be well inside the 100 fathom curve. Tides and currents in this area are benign and underwater visibility is good. This should be a relatively easy recovery of the pieces of interest.
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The woeful R/T during this event will certainly be a factor.
Crass and cavalier radio chatter is SOP in the good 'ol US of A. Farm animal noises on guard, trying to sound cool with every transmission with ATC. It's a bloody disgrace a lot of the time.
'roll the trucks', 'we're going in the hudson', 'she's running hot', '5 to 10 in the climb', 'hows the ride at three five oh'.
It's an embarrassment. Some of these clown should have a go at flying outside the US and see how well that goes.
Crass and cavalier radio chatter is SOP in the good 'ol US of A. Farm animal noises on guard, trying to sound cool with every transmission with ATC. It's a bloody disgrace a lot of the time.
'roll the trucks', 'we're going in the hudson', 'she's running hot', '5 to 10 in the climb', 'hows the ride at three five oh'.
It's an embarrassment. Some of these clown should have a go at flying outside the US and see how well that goes.
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Flying Clog
Regarding US Airways 1549, Sully did in fact transmit "Mayday Mayday Mayday" right after the dual engine failure was recognised and he took control - it just wasn't heard over the air as it was stepped on by another transmission. It was recorded on the CVR. https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/...ts/AAR1003.pdf - see transcript at page 189. The "we're gonna be in the Hudson" only came later and was after the nature of the emergency was firmly established with appropraite RT procedure from both aircraft and controller. It was in fact a statement of fact because that's precisely what was to occur moments later, so I don't share your concern that Sully is a clown who would have trouble flying outside the US.
Regarding US Airways 1549, Sully did in fact transmit "Mayday Mayday Mayday" right after the dual engine failure was recognised and he took control - it just wasn't heard over the air as it was stepped on by another transmission. It was recorded on the CVR. https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/...ts/AAR1003.pdf - see transcript at page 189. The "we're gonna be in the Hudson" only came later and was after the nature of the emergency was firmly established with appropraite RT procedure from both aircraft and controller. It was in fact a statement of fact because that's precisely what was to occur moments later, so I don't share your concern that Sully is a clown who would have trouble flying outside the US.
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So maybe your RT is better than my entire country… but how are your hand-flying skills when it comes to making survivable night ocean ditchings in jet aircraft? What’s that you say, how are MINE? No idea, never done it! But these two guys did, and they basically walked away from it. All that matters is their speedy recovery at this point.
I understand your frustration with radio slang in the US, and I am right there with you about the use of 121.5 as a stand-up comedy venue….
BUT, none of that has any bearing whatsoever on the outcome of these guys’ situation, full stop. There was no navigational assistance that ATC can provide to a crew flying out of their home base, for an airline that only serves 5 destinations that are all within a half-hour of each other. The crew had the wherewithal to ask ATC to call the US Coast Guard, and ditched the aircraft in the direction of the closest USCG base (which was closer than HNL at that point).
So they spoke like normal human beings rather than perfect RT instructors while faced with one of the worst possible situations that can occur in an aircraft. So what? In doing so they requested and received the only real assistance that ATC could have provided them, and are alive as a result.
I understand your frustration with radio slang in the US, and I am right there with you about the use of 121.5 as a stand-up comedy venue….
BUT, none of that has any bearing whatsoever on the outcome of these guys’ situation, full stop. There was no navigational assistance that ATC can provide to a crew flying out of their home base, for an airline that only serves 5 destinations that are all within a half-hour of each other. The crew had the wherewithal to ask ATC to call the US Coast Guard, and ditched the aircraft in the direction of the closest USCG base (which was closer than HNL at that point).
So they spoke like normal human beings rather than perfect RT instructors while faced with one of the worst possible situations that can occur in an aircraft. So what? In doing so they requested and received the only real assistance that ATC could have provided them, and are alive as a result.
Last edited by hikoushi; 5th Jul 2021 at 07:43.
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Aviate navigate communicate seemed to work well here from what we know.. I am going to say loud and clear that very few have survived after having to put a transport aircraft into the sea in the dark (or daylight actually) and survive. What ever the minor shortcomings elsewhere the crew are to be congratulated. Period.
A question with regard to the radio calls, frequently stepping on each other. Given that the 737 was quite far away at low altitude, could poor reception help explain the overlaps in transmission ? Perhaps each party thinking the other had finished - and clearly the controller very keen to be able to help, despite being busy with other tasks at the same time?
The emotion in the Air Traffic Controller's voice at the end is clear to hear. Superb that both crew survived a nail biting experience..
The emotion in the Air Traffic Controller's voice at the end is clear to hear. Superb that both crew survived a nail biting experience..
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I regret weighing in earlier in what has become another classic episode of PPRuNe vs. US radio discipline. The striking part of the recording for me was, when, after missing the first two calls, the controller hears "we've lost an engine", she doesn't wait for the transmission to finish, but immediately steps on them to cancel the company approach and clear the aircraft for a quick return.
another point that should be made: they spent an hour in the water. Five more minutes and the ending wouldn't be as happy as we hope this one will be.
another point that should be made: they spent an hour in the water. Five more minutes and the ending wouldn't be as happy as we hope this one will be.
The pilots of Transair Flight 810 heading from Honolulu to Maui reported engine trouble and were trying to return to Honolulu, the Federal Aviation Administration said in a statement.
“We’ve lost No. 1 engine, and we’re coming straight to the airport,” one of the pilots said in air traffic control communications. “We’re going to need the fire department. There’s a chance we’re going to lose the other engine, too, it’s running very hot. We’re very low on speed.”
The pilot said they weren’t carrying hazardous materials and had two hours’ worth of fuel. They asked the tower to advise the Coast Guard, then asked if there was a closer airport than Honolulu.
After a stretch of silence, the controller asks if the pilot is still there. There was no response.
“We’ve lost No. 1 engine, and we’re coming straight to the airport,” one of the pilots said in air traffic control communications. “We’re going to need the fire department. There’s a chance we’re going to lose the other engine, too, it’s running very hot. We’re very low on speed.”
The pilot said they weren’t carrying hazardous materials and had two hours’ worth of fuel. They asked the tower to advise the Coast Guard, then asked if there was a closer airport than Honolulu.
After a stretch of silence, the controller asks if the pilot is still there. There was no response.
DingerX
It does seem that the ditching happened effectively within sight of the Coast Guard base at Kalaeloa, just a couple of minutes time for the helicopter. We also heard I believe from the Coast Guard crew that they were on a 24-hour duty roster, starting at 8 am the previous day, and still in progress when the incident arose at about 2 am the following early morning. One presumes by this time the crew were at least napping, and likely would take a while to get going. Is there any more detail about this, and why they work in this manner.
It does seem that the ditching happened effectively within sight of the Coast Guard base at Kalaeloa, just a couple of minutes time for the helicopter. We also heard I believe from the Coast Guard crew that they were on a 24-hour duty roster, starting at 8 am the previous day, and still in progress when the incident arose at about 2 am the following early morning. One presumes by this time the crew were at least napping, and likely would take a while to get going. Is there any more detail about this, and why they work in this manner.
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This from the Rhoades past and the sad tale of CV240 N450GA
https://aviation-safety.net/database...?id=19911128-0
1992 CV240 N152JR BAK Both engines failed due to spark plug break up.
Captain Goldverdi Sultan Peymani (Goldie) saved the day with ‘Yeager-like’ skills.
it was my honor and privilege to be his FO.
https://aviation-safety.net/database...?id=19911128-0
1992 CV240 N152JR BAK Both engines failed due to spark plug break up.
Captain Goldverdi Sultan Peymani (Goldie) saved the day with ‘Yeager-like’ skills.
it was my honor and privilege to be his FO.
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Flying Clog
Nice, 8 posts in and your full on U.S of A. stereotyping and bashing. You will fit in well around here, welcome aboard.
P.S. I took off a couple points for not fitting in MAGA, guns or Trump.
MODS-if this was pre-approved then shame on you.
Nice, 8 posts in and your full on U.S of A. stereotyping and bashing. You will fit in well around here, welcome aboard.
P.S. I took off a couple points for not fitting in MAGA, guns or Trump.
MODS-if this was pre-approved then shame on you.
biscuit74
Using GPS coordinates and assuming the flight was at maximum distance while on the NW heading, the max distance from HNL was just under 17 NM at an altitude of around 1200 ft. That distance is well within the range capabilities of a VHF comm and there were no line-of-sight obstructions.
Regarding the parties thinking each other had finished, I think back to my initial flight training with a 180 ch comm, handheld microphone and cabin speaker, where the CFI insisted on the use of "over" for every radio transmission. "Over" is still in the AIM as approved radio phraseology but is optional. Imagine how its use would have untangled the communications in this accident.
Using GPS coordinates and assuming the flight was at maximum distance while on the NW heading, the max distance from HNL was just under 17 NM at an altitude of around 1200 ft. That distance is well within the range capabilities of a VHF comm and there were no line-of-sight obstructions.
Regarding the parties thinking each other had finished, I think back to my initial flight training with a 180 ch comm, handheld microphone and cabin speaker, where the CFI insisted on the use of "over" for every radio transmission. "Over" is still in the AIM as approved radio phraseology but is optional. Imagine how its use would have untangled the communications in this accident.
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
Regarding their time in the water, IIRC, when the RAF were providing rescue cover in UK, the response time was 15 min in daylight (usually a lot less) and 30 min at night. Allowing time for the call to reach the crew, start-up and transit, I would say that one hour in the water was pretty darn good. I'm sure some ex RAF crew will correct my timings if they are wrong.
Pegase Driver
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Interesting comments here on how a pilot should declare an emergency and what ATC should do. Not willing to restart the old US vs the rest of the world debate, just to set the record straight, , this is what Controllers all around the world ( and I suspect the FAA nowadays as things have changed since the TWA era ) are being taught :
After listening to the ( partial) R/T exchange published at the beginning of this thread I can conclude that the crew remained professional and provided all information required.
and the Controller understood the emergency and responded in a very adequate manner , provided all assistance required , especially in navigation , and the Pilots did a remarkable job in ditching a 737 in the dark and are still there to talk about it.
The only advantage of declaring Mayday 3x here would have been to silence the other traffic , a plus point in this situation especially since the controller was alone managing multiple frequencies , which is unfortunately becoming a standard during night in many places.
Pilots believing themselves to be facing an emergency situation should declare an emergency as soon as possible and cancel it later if the situation allows.
The correct method of communicating this information to ATC is by using the prefix “MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY” or “PAN PAN, PAN PAN, PAN PAN” as appropriate. This procedure, which is an international standard, is the single most effective means of alerting the controller to the need to give priority to the message that will follow.
In certain types of emergency the flight crew will don oxygen masks. The wearing of oxygen masks may make the voice messages more difficult to understand and increases the risk of a clearance being misunderstood and the risk of readback/hearback errors.
Controller response to emergency situation
The Operators Guide to Human Factors in Aviation Briefing Note Pilots-controllers communications -offers the following advice:
"Controllers should recognize that, when faced with an emergency situation, the flight crew’s most important needs are:
The correct method of communicating this information to ATC is by using the prefix “MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY” or “PAN PAN, PAN PAN, PAN PAN” as appropriate. This procedure, which is an international standard, is the single most effective means of alerting the controller to the need to give priority to the message that will follow.
In certain types of emergency the flight crew will don oxygen masks. The wearing of oxygen masks may make the voice messages more difficult to understand and increases the risk of a clearance being misunderstood and the risk of readback/hearback errors.
Controller response to emergency situation
The Operators Guide to Human Factors in Aviation Briefing Note Pilots-controllers communications -offers the following advice:
"Controllers should recognize that, when faced with an emergency situation, the flight crew’s most important needs are:
- Time;
- Airspace; and,
- Silence."
- Acknowledge - Ensure that the reported emergency is well-understood and acknowledged;
- Separate - Establish and maintain separation with other traffic and terrain;
- Silence - Impose silence on your control frequency, if necessary; and do not delay or disturb urgent cockpit action by unnecessary transmissions;
- Inform - Inform your supervisor and other sectors, units and airports as appropriate;
- Support - Provide maximum support to the flight crew; and,
- Time - Allow the flight crew sufficient time to manage the emergency."
and the Controller understood the emergency and responded in a very adequate manner , provided all assistance required , especially in navigation , and the Pilots did a remarkable job in ditching a 737 in the dark and are still there to talk about it.
The only advantage of declaring Mayday 3x here would have been to silence the other traffic , a plus point in this situation especially since the controller was alone managing multiple frequencies , which is unfortunately becoming a standard during night in many places.
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
In my old company, an engine failure on a twin was a MAYDAY. You can always downgrade to a PAN, or even cancel altogether, as the situation unfolds.
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Flying Clog
Europe is far from perfect. We were North of Nice headed to MXP when we got a traffic warning. A quick look showed a aircraft coaltitude at FL330. We attempted to talk to the controller without a reply. Acquired the traffic visually about the time we got the TCAS climb climb call out. We initiated a climb and tried to tell the controller we were climbing but a flurry of panicked French transmissions broke out on the frequency. A A320 passed right under us. We again attempted to talk to the controller with no reply but still lots of loud French. Returned to FL 330 on our own and no French controller would speak to us again. Had to effect our own frequency change to the Italians. Using multiple languages on the same frequency should be banned.
Europe is far from perfect. We were North of Nice headed to MXP when we got a traffic warning. A quick look showed a aircraft coaltitude at FL330. We attempted to talk to the controller without a reply. Acquired the traffic visually about the time we got the TCAS climb climb call out. We initiated a climb and tried to tell the controller we were climbing but a flurry of panicked French transmissions broke out on the frequency. A A320 passed right under us. We again attempted to talk to the controller with no reply but still lots of loud French. Returned to FL 330 on our own and no French controller would speak to us again. Had to effect our own frequency change to the Italians. Using multiple languages on the same frequency should be banned.
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RatherBeFlying
I think they still would have been wearing their harnesses as the first engine failed very shortly after takeoff. The head injuries would have almost certainly come from the overhead panels coming loose and collapsing on them.
I think they still would have been wearing their harnesses as the first engine failed very shortly after takeoff. The head injuries would have almost certainly come from the overhead panels coming loose and collapsing on them.
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Sounds like they hit the water pretty hard. It will be interesting to see how much flap they had out and whether they managed to do anything to preserve hydraulic availability (for the flaps).
