B-737 Cargo Plane down in Hawaii
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Originally Posted by FlightDetent
My type has a TL indication, commanded EPR target if you will. Already rated a few years when I copied someone's technique to visually observe that doughnut to move - on the dead engine - as I retard.
Later adding an extra eyeflow to confirm what the remaking good engine is doing AFTER closing the faulty TL. BEFORE actioning the master switch/fuel shutoff. Which is a pretty universal.
Later adding an extra eyeflow to confirm what the remaking good engine is doing AFTER closing the faulty TL. BEFORE actioning the master switch/fuel shutoff. Which is a pretty universal.
The Kegworth avoidable accident was largely down to very poor CRM. Do I even recall the captain taking over as PF and taking the AP out!!
The crew were very much system-biased, ie where the AC bleed was fed from; all the (correct) indications were there to be seen on the EICAS, but they erroneously chose to ignore them!
The crew were very much system-biased, ie where the AC bleed was fed from; all the (correct) indications were there to be seen on the EICAS, but they erroneously chose to ignore them!
There is no EICAS on the 400. The engine instruments also come in two versions, analogue and what I call 'half-glass', the older analogue easier to read in my opinion. With the 200, EPR is the top row replaced by N1 on the 300 onwards. I see wrong identification more than I should in the Sim and rushing is the common cause. Never rely on yaw if the engine is surging and just take your time reading the dials. As in all accidents there were many factors in the Kegworth accident including poor communication with the F/A's.
Looking at the fuselage break in the Hawaii ditching it makes me smile to read the ditching drills in the manual. You can't learn everything from books, sometimes you have to make it up as you go along.
Looking at the fuselage break in the Hawaii ditching it makes me smile to read the ditching drills in the manual. You can't learn everything from books, sometimes you have to make it up as you go along.
Originally Posted by BewareOfTheSharklets
Is this a hint that the NTSB's final report will indicate that the non-operational discussions were a causal factor?
I notice the FAA -NTSB are still using gender specific pronouns, marvellous. Here in the land of wasted opportunity, the ATSB now refer to individuals as they, them or their.
Excerpt from FO 2nd interview:
Q. Is the rudder pressure -- does it take a lot of pressure when you lose an engine to hold it or is it kind of like tiptoe touching pushing rudder?
A. It does in the simulator. But in the airplane, it didn't. It wasn't (indiscernible) that much. I was surprised. I remember being surprised that it wasn't like the simulator.
Q. By not the simulator, I just want to make sure I in my head I have it correctly -- you're saying in the simulator it took a lot of pressure. And in the --
A. Yes.
Q. -- airplane, it did not. Correct?
A. (No audible response)
The FDR data appears to indicate that initially the problem was a partial loss of thrust on the #2 engine, which surprised the FO because the Transair sim training was for complete loss of thrust.
Q. Is the rudder pressure -- does it take a lot of pressure when you lose an engine to hold it or is it kind of like tiptoe touching pushing rudder?
A. It does in the simulator. But in the airplane, it didn't. It wasn't (indiscernible) that much. I was surprised. I remember being surprised that it wasn't like the simulator.
Q. By not the simulator, I just want to make sure I in my head I have it correctly -- you're saying in the simulator it took a lot of pressure. And in the --
A. Yes.
Q. -- airplane, it did not. Correct?
A. (No audible response)
The FDR data appears to indicate that initially the problem was a partial loss of thrust on the #2 engine, which surprised the FO because the Transair sim training was for complete loss of thrust.
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Originally Posted by BFSGrad
Excerpt from FO 2nd interview:
Q. Is the rudder pressure -- does it take a lot of pressure when you lose an engine to hold it or is it kind of like tiptoe touching pushing rudder?
A. It does in the simulator. But in the airplane, it didn't. It wasn't (indiscernible) that much. I was surprised. I remember being surprised that it wasn't like the simulator.
Q. By not the simulator, I just want to make sure I in my head I have it correctly -- you're saying in the simulator it took a lot of pressure. And in the --
A. Yes.
Q. -- airplane, it did not. Correct?
A. (No audible response)
The FDR data appears to indicate that initially the problem was a partial loss of thrust on the #2 engine, which surprised the FO because the Transair sim training was for complete loss of thrust.
Q. Is the rudder pressure -- does it take a lot of pressure when you lose an engine to hold it or is it kind of like tiptoe touching pushing rudder?
A. It does in the simulator. But in the airplane, it didn't. It wasn't (indiscernible) that much. I was surprised. I remember being surprised that it wasn't like the simulator.
Q. By not the simulator, I just want to make sure I in my head I have it correctly -- you're saying in the simulator it took a lot of pressure. And in the --
A. Yes.
Q. -- airplane, it did not. Correct?
A. (No audible response)
The FDR data appears to indicate that initially the problem was a partial loss of thrust on the #2 engine, which surprised the FO because the Transair sim training was for complete loss of thrust.
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Had a sim session once with the other pilot simulating incapacitation immediately after lift-off, plus an engine failure occurring on number 1 and simultaneous engine fire indication on number 2 (the engine still providing thrust). Yes, a quite unrealistic scenario, but it absolutely helped me learn to analyse the problem first before rushing into action.
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Originally Posted by xetroV
Had a sim session once with the other pilot simulating incapacitation immediately after lift-off, plus an engine failure occurring on number 1 and simultaneous engine fire indication on number 2 (the engine still providing thrust). Yes, a quite unrealistic scenario, but it absolutely helped me learn to analyse the problem first before rushing into action.
Shut down the good engine on a twin happens relatively often. So the pilots did a good thing only idling the assumed faulty one. Why did it never appear to them to give the idling engine a shot while they had already called for the coast guard. Task saturation? I would think you firewall all power you have if you go down over an ocean at night. Why stick to a wrong decision making if there is very little to loose if you try the other options? May be the training is not optimal for those situations?
Originally Posted by By George
Looking at the fuselage break in the Hawaii ditching it makes me smile to read the ditching drills in the manual. You can't learn everything from books, sometimes you have to make it up as you go along.
That being said, I worked with a guy that - since there had never been a successful ditching of a jet with high bypass, underwing engines - figured we could save a lot of weight and money getting rid of the rafts and all that other stuff since it'll never be needed (this was before Sully - but to be fair the Hudson is much different than open ocean).
Originally Posted by EDLB
Shut down the good engine on a twin happens relatively often. So the pilots did a good thing only idling the assumed faulty one. Why did it never appear to them to give the idling engine a shot while they had already called for the coast guard. Task saturation? I would think you firewall all power you have if you go down over an ocean at night. Why stick to a wrong decision making if there is very little to loose if you try the other options? May be the training is not optimal for those situations?
