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Mid Air in the US

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Mid Air in the US

Old 17th May 2021, 10:41
  #101 (permalink)  
Pegase Driver
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Europe
Age: 71
Posts: 3,019
@ lederhosen.
Thanks! point taken, yes , I removed a few words from my previous post, I am indeed always edgy when I see those kind of comments
We all bring our own bias based on personal experience.
Oh yes, I had to laugh when you mentioned controllers looking for battle damage, now I get it .
ATC Watcher is offline  
Old 17th May 2021, 11:12
  #102 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: New jersey
Posts: 55
Perhaps the approaches were initially staggered, but the High airspeed of the Cirrus, coupled with an early turn to final might have closed the gap between the two aircraft.
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Old 17th May 2021, 11:22
  #103 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2014
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Not sure if the normal separation rules for parallel approaches apply once you have VFR flights involved? You pass the traffic information, then the pilot is responsible for separation.

To some earlier post..... the Metro was on short final, what would you gain from telling him a part of his fuselage is missing? He wouldn't go around.... and there are no real checklists to complete in this event.... if anything, a quick landing is probably the safest anyway.

Did the controller see the collision? She could've had her eyes elsewhere for a second.
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Old 17th May 2021, 13:55
  #104 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Reading, UK
Posts: 13,139
Yes, the previously-mentioned "independent parallel approaches", and the rules applying to those, refer to instrument approaches only.
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Old 17th May 2021, 22:27
  #105 (permalink)  
See and avoid
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In terms of ATC not being able to see the damage, the damage is quite obvious from a sideways view, but when you are looking straight down the nose of the aircraft, even if you have astonishingly good eyesight, the damage would have been nearly invisible.
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Old 18th May 2021, 07:50
  #106 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: 5945'36N 1027'59E
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Yes, all talk about rules for IPA are way out of scope in this case.

Not commenting on the actions of the two TWR controllers in this case, but as a controller myself, what I can say, is that one of the things that influence when you commit further traffic info, is when one aircraft reports the other aircraft in sight. Especially when it is the aircraft that have to maneuver to avoid collision and/or find its place in a sequence.

It is also quite probable that the 17R controller told his 17L colleague that the Cirrus had the Metro in sight.

There is however an elephant in the room, and that is that commercial pressure to allow parallell VFR operations on that close RWYs on separate frequencies DO introduce an increased risk compared to having one frequency for both runways.
It clearly works well at MANY airports all the time all over the world, but at some point someone will own the risk.🤐
M609 is online now  
Old 18th May 2021, 21:35
  #107 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2015
Location: UK
Posts: 24
See and avoid isn't good enough as sole strategy. It is high risk..We are not up to the task..
lpvapproach is offline  
Old 19th May 2021, 00:54
  #108 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2005
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See and avoid isn't good enough as sole strategy. It is high risk..We are not up to the task
NASA Human Factors Division at Ames Research Center, United Airlines and the Airline Pilots Association found that the normal cockpit duties during approach resulted in flight crews detecting another aircraft on a converging course less than 30% of the time. This detection rate plummeted to nearly zero when flight crews were given a late-minute change of runway instructions and/or report of a meteorological change that required their attention
megan is offline  
Old 19th May 2021, 02:04
  #109 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 40
We've never been up to the task. Even when our immediate survival has depended on us spotting approaching aircraft intent on hitting us with something, if not themselves then some piece of hardware they're carrying.
We've accepted the risk associated with "see and be seen" operations and done our best to mitigate it, acknowledging that by doing so we're able to do a lot more things that we wouldn't be able to otherwise.
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Old 20th May 2021, 00:18
  #110 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,853
Check Airman

DFW doesn't. They have enough runways and they normally depart on the inboards and land on the outers. 17L/35R is far enough away from 17C/35C they don't need it. ORD has some published for 10R/28R and 10C/28C but in over a decade of flying out of there I've never heard of them being used.
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Old 23rd May 2021, 19:06
  #111 (permalink)  
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Old 24th May 2021, 19:20
  #112 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: surfing, watching for sharks
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And of the millions of times see and avoid has worked?

Doesn’t mean there isn’t room for improvement, but let’s not lose sight of its effectiveness the majority of the time.
West Coast is offline  
Old 8th Jun 2021, 02:19
  #113 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: N/A
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Control towers don't do what you think they do.

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