734 hard landing @ Exeter
I think most folk on here are attempting to look at the issue dispassionately and to first gather the data, then analyse and then draw conclusions. And as fdr says quite rightly; past history is no indication of future performance. Trends don't indicate single events.
The vast, vast, vast, vast majority of accidents and incidents are caused by machines designed and flown in the most part by men. However enough females design and fly the machines for data to be gathered. The idea that there would zero statistical difference at all is highly unlikely but possible when accounting for gender ratio differences in the professions. I know in my own experience the most difficult and least competent pilots were/are guys. But that's anecdotal.
As for other poster(s) on here who use highly emotive language to shut down discussion and use shame to silence it; I think it says it all about your argument or lack thereof.
The vast, vast, vast, vast majority of accidents and incidents are caused by machines designed and flown in the most part by men. However enough females design and fly the machines for data to be gathered. The idea that there would zero statistical difference at all is highly unlikely but possible when accounting for gender ratio differences in the professions. I know in my own experience the most difficult and least competent pilots were/are guys. But that's anecdotal.
As for other poster(s) on here who use highly emotive language to shut down discussion and use shame to silence it; I think it says it all about your argument or lack thereof.
The pilot flying of this aircraft was a qualified and certified pilot. Happens to be a female. So what? Females have been high-scoring aces, have saved RPT jets in distress, and also been killed by male pilots who screwed up, biggly. There have been some notable crashes where the co-pilot was female, UAL585, Colgan, USBangla, and in none of those events would gender have made any difference to the outcome. Male co-pilots and Captains have been screwing up since Wilbur and Orville were working out how to make date night work, and that seems to be the direction we intend to continue with. The DXB departure was not dependent on the gender, nor was the arrival done by a group of male pilots.
A charge of bias towards females comes from a pretty interesting place, one has to ask why they were underrepresented in the first place; that is where the bias arose. Have just completed over 150hrs with one young lady, and she exhibited the exact same weaknesses in her competency as a male compatriot who had 10 times her experience. Whatever the issues are, gender didn't enter into the issues.
A charge of bias towards females comes from a pretty interesting place, one has to ask why they were underrepresented in the first place; that is where the bias arose. Have just completed over 150hrs with one young lady, and she exhibited the exact same weaknesses in her competency as a male compatriot who had 10 times her experience. Whatever the issues are, gender didn't enter into the issues.
de minimus non curat lex
Go back to flight school. Examine the training records. Speak to the Flight Instructors, and the experienced ones will be able to say with a high degree of certainty as to who will turn out to be sound, and those who will always struggle post licence issue.
There will of course always be some late developers who will come good in the end.
Depending how the brain is wired up, the extremes of the spectrum will result in a natural ability or one where shear hard work is necessary to achieve the required basic skills. Ideally a “Steady Eddie” will emerge.
The Exeter report is rich material for students of CRM analysis. Learn from other peoples mistakes as you will not live long enough to make them all yourself.
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The pilot flying of this aircraft was a qualified and certified pilot. Happens to be a female. So what?
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It is worthy of discussion though. If Easyjet is disqualifying 90% of the candidates who would apply if they could from their cadet scheme due to gender reasons only, it is impossible to avoid the average level of candidate talent decreasing significantly. A lot of people are scared to say this because of the politicization creeping into just about everything. Some right on this forum will disagree using their excuses but aviation safety comes first in my mind.
However, I am happy to get back on to the piloting issues of this thread.
However, I am happy to get back on to the piloting issues of this thread.
I think gender concern especially over the easyJet scheme is just male protectionism. The problem with both of these pilots was basic decision making. It doesn’t need an OM A or B policy to make clear that multiple sink rate cautions and an approach that unstable should have led to the captain to either call go around or take control.
The elephant in the room is that some people are just below average pilots and as long as they scrape through LPCs after practicing in the sim on a known profile every year they will be fine. Those people need to be weeded out but it is very hard. Many end up as professional copilots who can be very pleasant colleagues but are a liability when the operation strays outside their rehearsed little box. Major airlines and unions however currently allow people who are marginally competent to stay in the flight deck and with the shortages of crew the problem isn’t going away.
The elephant in the room is that some people are just below average pilots and as long as they scrape through LPCs after practicing in the sim on a known profile every year they will be fine. Those people need to be weeded out but it is very hard. Many end up as professional copilots who can be very pleasant colleagues but are a liability when the operation strays outside their rehearsed little box. Major airlines and unions however currently allow people who are marginally competent to stay in the flight deck and with the shortages of crew the problem isn’t going away.
Controversial, moi?
Many end up as professional copilots who can be very pleasant colleagues but are a liability when the operation strays outside their rehearsed little box.
This occurred at two in the morning on the first night of a cargo rotation during the early stages of Covid when schedules were disrupted and people were flying less. The weather was not great at a regional airport with what I would consider a shorter than average wet runway and a gusty wind. The company was going through turbulent times post Brexit and the working atmosphere may have been affected. The conclusion of many posters seems to be that this accident is probably the result of the wrong people flying.
I don’t think there is any doubt that both pilots performed poorly on this occasion. But I think it is simplistic to put it down just to poor selection and training. In my company multiple GPWS warnings without a go around would have led to a rapid tea no biscuits interaction with the safety department. The concept that the operations manual did not cover what to do if an approach became unstable below minimum also seems very strange. I would allocate more than a little blame to management and supervision. The reduction in flying due to Covid has been followed by some interesting incidents. The Easyjet high speed reject way beyond V1 at Luton and the Aberdeen missed approach with TUI are two that immediately spring to mind and in very reputable airlines. Multiple factors in my opinion played a role in this accident.
I don’t think there is any doubt that both pilots performed poorly on this occasion. But I think it is simplistic to put it down just to poor selection and training. In my company multiple GPWS warnings without a go around would have led to a rapid tea no biscuits interaction with the safety department. The concept that the operations manual did not cover what to do if an approach became unstable below minimum also seems very strange. I would allocate more than a little blame to management and supervision. The reduction in flying due to Covid has been followed by some interesting incidents. The Easyjet high speed reject way beyond V1 at Luton and the Aberdeen missed approach with TUI are two that immediately spring to mind and in very reputable airlines. Multiple factors in my opinion played a role in this accident.
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This occurred at two in the morning on the first night of a cargo rotation during the early stages of Covid when schedules were disrupted and people were flying less. The weather was not great at a regional airport with what I would consider a shorter than average wet runway and a gusty wind. The company was going through turbulent times post Brexit and the working atmosphere may have been affected. The conclusion of many posters seems to be that this accident is probably the result of the wrong people flying.
I don’t think there is any doubt that both pilots performed poorly on this occasion. But I think it is simplistic to put it down just to poor selection and training. In my company multiple GPWS warnings without a go around would have led to a rapid tea no biscuits interaction with the safety department. The concept that the operations manual did not cover what to do if an approach became unstable below minimum also seems very strange. I would allocate more than a little blame to management and supervision. The reduction in flying due to Covid has been followed by some interesting incidents. The Easyjet high speed reject way beyond V1 at Luton and the Aberdeen missed approach with TUI are two that immediately spring to mind and in very reputable airlines. Multiple factors in my opinion played a role in this accident.
I don’t think there is any doubt that both pilots performed poorly on this occasion. But I think it is simplistic to put it down just to poor selection and training. In my company multiple GPWS warnings without a go around would have led to a rapid tea no biscuits interaction with the safety department. The concept that the operations manual did not cover what to do if an approach became unstable below minimum also seems very strange. I would allocate more than a little blame to management and supervision. The reduction in flying due to Covid has been followed by some interesting incidents. The Easyjet high speed reject way beyond V1 at Luton and the Aberdeen missed approach with TUI are two that immediately spring to mind and in very reputable airlines. Multiple factors in my opinion played a role in this accident.
Generally you are right that cargo has done well unless of course you work for a Russian aligned operation. The report says though that the captain had flown on average 8 hours a month over the last 90 days, which even in night freight is at the bottom end. We can speculate as to the reasons for the low hours, but I think we can agree you might not be super current particularly if you were giving away some of your landings. I find it interesting that the co-pilot did both landings that night.
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Generally you are right that cargo has done well unless of course you work for a Russian aligned operation. The report says though that the captain had flown on average 8 hours a month over the last 90 days, which even in night freight is at the bottom end. We can speculate as to the reasons for the low hours, but I think we can agree you might not be super current particularly if you were giving away some of your landings. I find it interesting that the co-pilot did both landings that night.
Gender is irrelevant. Did they have a bad day, or was this one of many bad days? No consideration of training records or career history is a startling omission from the report. Pages and pages on what happened, nothing on why.
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Forgive me, it is only startling if you have a presupposition that the AAIB is competent.
Mistrust in Management
The problem with both of these pilots was basic decision making. It doesn’t need an OM A or B policy to make clear that multiple sink rate cautions and an approach that unstable should have led to the captain to either call go around or take control.
It is not relevant in a single instance to denigrate the performance of a particular F/O as it is the Captain's resposibility at that time to ensure the safety of the flight. It is anothe discussio altogether on how or why certain pilots continue emplyment when their performance is sub optimal.
Kind regards
Exeng
This crew (should) have been asleep all day to prepare for their night duty.
I wish them no ill, but they clearly went unstable after they had declared "stable" during their approach. PF should have gone around but if they didn't, PM/PIC should have gone around. "Stable" needs to be stable all the way down to the runway !
One potential safety problem with freight operations is time penalties. Ever since I did night Royal Mail flights years ago (with another company), and was told to close up and get going instead of re-tying a badly secured loose load*, I thought time penalties where aircraft are involved is unsafe, since it puts pressure on pilots and ground staff to get going.
*I ignored the command and resecured the load first. Load shifts can be fatal.
I wish them no ill, but they clearly went unstable after they had declared "stable" during their approach. PF should have gone around but if they didn't, PM/PIC should have gone around. "Stable" needs to be stable all the way down to the runway !
One potential safety problem with freight operations is time penalties. Ever since I did night Royal Mail flights years ago (with another company), and was told to close up and get going instead of re-tying a badly secured loose load*, I thought time penalties where aircraft are involved is unsafe, since it puts pressure on pilots and ground staff to get going.
*I ignored the command and resecured the load first. Load shifts can be fatal.
Wasn’t it shortly after the accident in Exeter that West Atlantic binned all its UK based pilots? You have to wonder if there were any rumours doing the rounds that the crew would all be out of employment and this subconsciously caused stress and distraction
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I’m not suggesting the above contributed to the accident but morale was pretty low at WA at around that time.
