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737-500 missing in Indonesia

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737-500 missing in Indonesia

Old 3rd Apr 2021, 03:39
  #741 (permalink)  
 
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Does anyone think we will ever see a transcript?
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Old 3rd Apr 2021, 15:35
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Yes, for the major accidents in Indonesia for the past 8 or 10 years, in the English version of the reports, KNKT has included a detailed translation of the CVR transcript (timestamps, who spoke the words, etc.). Some phrases or sentences are summarized (i.e. "PA announcement made to passengers") and some direct quotes / detailed info is included for what KNKT considers more relevant to cause.

Just FYI: Some national investigative agencies routinely include full transcripts as appendices to their reports and some do not. See Annex 13, Sections 5.12 and 5.12.1 for the ICAO position and guidance.

Last edited by grizzled; 3rd Apr 2021 at 15:45.
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Old 4th Apr 2021, 11:25
  #743 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by grizzled
The idea of storing CVR and FDR data outside the aircraft has been researched and discussed by all the major international aviation agencies in the recent past (especially ICAO, of course).
The agencies can discuss it all they like, but the practicality will come from the manufacturers, the likes of Honeywell etc. You can't require what isn't available on the market.
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Old 4th Apr 2021, 12:25
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Actually, you need both, the technical feasibility and the regulatory framework. Thales or Honeywell can design marvellous things, they will remain very expensive prototypes in the absence of regulatory material, to ensure their marketability. Requirement and Advisory Material will provide some minimum specs as well as ensure standardisation (a vital aspect for CVR/DFDR), and will typically mandate the equipment or give it some kind of credit (replacing older equipment or allowing further operational possibilities) so that it can be access the market.

As an example, EASA has published various NPA (Notice of Proposed Amendment) and is funding research on the topic, just Google it.
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Old 4th Apr 2021, 17:15
  #745 (permalink)  
 
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WHBM

Not to jump on the wagon, hello ADS-B OUT
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Old 4th Apr 2021, 20:34
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armagnac2010

Most commercial aircraft are still flying around with the same model of CVR and FDR they were delivered with decades earlier. It is rare that updated recorders are fitted to existing aircraft, and it's very expensive to do so. To mandate retrofit would require an Airworthiness Directive - and those have to go through a cost/benefit analysis to justify the expense, and it's very difficult to quantify the financial benefit of improved data recorders.
There are still commercial airliners out there flying around with the old foil style recorder - in fact about ten years ago I was investigating crash FDR data from an analog foil recorder (the only engine parameter was EPR - and that of questionable accuracy).
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Old 4th Apr 2021, 21:11
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mnttech

"Not to jump on the wagon, hello ADS-B OUT"

ADS-B-Out provides a minute fraction of the bandwidth that would be required for real-time FDR/CVR streaming.
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Old 4th Apr 2021, 23:05
  #748 (permalink)  
 
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ADS-B-Out is a welcome advance in aviation and will surely provide benefit, but, as Dave suggests, there are still BIG issues re bandwidth when we are talking about real-time streaming of all CVR-FDR datapoints for all commercial aircraft.
Just as importantly (IMO) is the ongoing discussion of the intent of CVRs and FDRs. Adequately protecting the privacy of the information (especially from CVR) and ensuring it is used solely for its intended purpose (official accident investigation to ascertain cause and contributors) is problematic with streaming.
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Old 5th Apr 2021, 08:43
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A single Starlink channels can give 200 mb/sec and the average number of planes in the sky over the last few years is 10000 at any one time giving about 20000 bits per second from one channel assuming they are all equipped. This is from one channel and there are many available.
Bandwidth is not really an issue

Last edited by sceh; 5th Apr 2021 at 08:43. Reason: spelling
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Old 5th Apr 2021, 09:06
  #750 (permalink)  
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Bandwidth is not really an issue
, but costs are.
Over continental airspace bandwidth will definitively be if using conventional Comms links, which are already saturated with mode S data., outside VHF coverage you will need satellite comms.
Satellite comms are still very expensive because all privately owned or run , and airlines are rejecting the idea of mandating it. Been discussed already for years within ICAO.
And as Dave pointed out already, ADS B-Out is not made at all for this.
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Old 5th Apr 2021, 14:30
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How much is "very expensive"? If they all have to do it there is no competitive disadvantage

They're happy enough installing the internet for passengers
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Old 5th Apr 2021, 14:35
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Originally Posted by WHBM
You can't require what isn't available on the market.
Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
mnttech
"Not to jump on the wagon, hello ADS-B OUT" ADS-B-Out provides a minute fraction of the bandwidth that would be required for real-time FDR/CVR streaming.
My point was that once the ADS-B mandate (at least in the US) was put in place, technology expanded to meet that requirement and more. I agree that the bandwidth is not there, nor was I saying ADS-B is the answer, I was simply showing that the FAA mandate (10 years prior to 1/1/2020) drove industry to come up with solutions.
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Old 5th Apr 2021, 15:46
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Would it be feasible for ADS-B to output useful parameters at a relatively low refresh rate under normal circumstances, but in a recognised abnormal situation where certain parameters are exceeded, for the system to increase the amount and/or frequency of data transmission? Not to replace FDR data, but to augment it and allow investigators access to some early data more quickly.
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Old 5th Apr 2021, 17:46
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How about this. The FDR and CVR keep ticking away as usual but, and here's the rub, under some circumstances the data they capture is also transmitted. The hard part would be defining those circumstances but they could be as simple as any slight deviation from expected parameters. Bandwidth is not the issue since engine data is transmitted and passengers get internet access. Far from perfect since some of the context might be missing in the case of total loss
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Old 5th Apr 2021, 19:06
  #755 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Asturias56
How much is "very expensive"? If they all have to do it there is no competitive disadvantage
Ok , this was discussed here many times before over the last decades, and was even the subject of an ICAO working group in the past . .In a nutshell : technically feasible, yes on paper , but the cots to set this up are enormous and the benefits did not match the expenses.
It is not only the transmission costs of using the Satcom , the amount of data to uplink and collect but also the storage infrastructure needed and the eventual retrofit to existing fleets all of it to be borne by the aircraft operators.
They all have said a big NO at the time . And since decisions like these are always done in consultation with airlines, no chance to mandate this against the will of the airlines I would say.
They're happy enough installing the internet for passengers
Yes because it is a commercial business decision, they believe if helps them getting more valuable business pax , and they sell the time at a premium .

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Old 5th Apr 2021, 19:18
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Int'l Aviation Agency

Reference was made to past discussions within ICAO -- so here, a question about that.

Where grizzled (738) referred to past discussions and noted specifically AF447 & MH370, were these discussions in the context of the subject, Global Flight Tracking? I was present (observer status) for part of those. Were there other discussions on the subject at, for example, the Air Navigation Commission?

Where ATC Watcher (753) also mentioned past discussions, were those separate from the Global Flight Tracking focus? [Plus 758, working group.....added]

No doubt offices of Permanent Reps have little difficulty getting into ICAO records quickly, but a cheap-seats SLF/lawyer gets by with a little help from my friends (please).
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Old 5th Apr 2021, 20:38
  #757 (permalink)  
 
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Global Flight Tracking and FDR/CVR streaming are two separate issues.
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Old 5th Apr 2021, 21:33
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You beat me to it, Dave.

They are somewhat related, but only in the sense that global flight tracking became a hot topic issue due to M370 (i.e. if we were far more advanced with global flight tracking we would have fewer reasons -- note I didn't say "no reason" -- to consider FDR / CVR streaming).
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Old 5th Apr 2021, 21:46
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OTHER than in the event of an accident, under what circumstances and how frequently is FDR/CVR data accessed? Not often? Then real time remote transmission/storage (and its technical challenges, complexity, fallibility, associated bureaucracy, costs and other hurdles) seems like an unduly expansive response to the problem at hand.

Like most black boxes, SJ-182`s FDR was retrieved and read efficiently. It is SJ-182`s CVR which proved difficult to locate (in part because the ULB separated from the CSMU sub-assy of the FA2100-style recorder.)

One solution: enhance legacy FDR & CVR devices to be more reliably easy to find.

K.I.S.

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Old 5th Apr 2021, 22:38
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Thanks for these clarifications.

As stated, several factors weigh heavily against satcom-based streaming - yet the idea gets brought up now and then. So let's say there are research interests in the way ICAO considers problems and possible solutions with somewhat complex cost-benefit assessments, or in developing new segments for international air law curricula, or in preparing background material to be used by one of the sector organizations or specialized government agencies.

Rather than taking any side on the merits this SLF/attorney is only looking at how digging into the record of ICAO's review of the issues might be pursued, below the easy superficial (official) record that's readily accessed. (Such is the dullness of legal and policy research....)
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