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737-500 missing in Indonesia

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737-500 missing in Indonesia

Old 30th Mar 2021, 16:07
  #721 (permalink)  
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I don't believe it's accurate to speak of "several international aviation agencies." There's ICAO. And it's the only game in town.
IATA is a trade association; IFALPA an organized labor entity; ACI an airports industry group, etc.

Annex 13, under which investigations are conducted, itself isn't exactly "law." The Chicago Convention of 1944 is an instrument within international law, but the extent to which any Annex is "law" gets into pedantic territory (and even more so regarding SARPs....).
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Old 30th Mar 2021, 16:26
  #722 (permalink)  
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Regarding the questions referring to the responsibility of the SAR costs, if my rusty memory is correct it was all set out in the original 1944 Chicago Convention (the one that established ICAO) or perhaps some later amendment. Adhering States provide Air Traffic and SAR services to all flights falling under the Convention, and in return they may collect an Air Navigation Charge proportional to the overflown distance modulated by an aircraft weight formula to recover these costs. While purely domestic flights do not fall under the Chicago Convention, most adhering States apply the same rules to domestic traffic too. Same Convention sets out responsibilities for accident investigation, and any related search and recovery costs are bourn by the investigating authority (in principle also funded from the Air Navigation Charge). The picture becomes complicated when a small country (with proportionately small ANC income) needs to fund a major investigation (usually involving a foreign airline), but in this case they have the option to delegate the investigation to another interested party (State of operator or manufacturer).

Of course in real life in most countries the collected charges just get swallowed up by the larger state budget, and there is some moaning involved when the bill is presented for an expensive recovery operation (usually carried out by specialised salvage firms).
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Old 31st Mar 2021, 02:58
  #723 (permalink)  
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CVR is found.
BREAKING NEWS: CVR Black Box Sriwijaya Air SJ 182 Ditemukan (kompas.com)
Indonesia recovers cockpit voice recorder of crashed Sriwijaya Air jet (yahoo.com)
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Old 31st Mar 2021, 05:09
  #724 (permalink)  
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Fantastic news
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Old 31st Mar 2021, 05:32
  #725 (permalink)  
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Very good news indeed, but let's wait to see if it can be exploited...
In any case congrats to the salvage team !
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Old 31st Mar 2021, 07:04
  #726 (permalink)  
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Fantastic search team, respect.
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Old 31st Mar 2021, 07:33
  #727 (permalink)  
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That's absolutely brilliant, well done to every one involved.

I was certain it was gone for good.
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Old 31st Mar 2021, 08:47
  #728 (permalink)  
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737-500 missing in Indonesia

Just a thought but but why not have duplicate CVRs and FDRs on aircraft in different locations?
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Old 31st Mar 2021, 09:20
  #729 (permalink)  
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Good idea Brian. Better than impractical idea of broadcasting it for ground storage.
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Old 31st Mar 2021, 10:55
  #730 (permalink)  
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More expensive , perhaps, but not impractical.
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Old 31st Mar 2021, 12:28
  #731 (permalink)  
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Kudos to the diving team working in those awful conditions and probably finding non airframe pieces too.
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Old 31st Mar 2021, 12:56
  #732 (permalink)  
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"More expensive, perhaps, but not impractical."

Or, if all else fails, just attach the ULBs more securely to the memory modules ...
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Old 31st Mar 2021, 14:27
  #733 (permalink)  
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Still all-eggs-in-one-basket rather than redundancy - but multiple would carry weight penalties and temptation of making them less crash-survivable and risking all of them not surviving, tradeoff as always.

But with what you say, is there a reason the ULBs have to be separate and "attached" (or detachable...), why not integrated?

I have vague idea this may be to do with ULBs having to be regularly replaced as the batteries die, but these days with solid state memory and near-field wireless power and data interfaces is it now possible to do ULB / CSMU in a single easily replaceable module?
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Old 31st Mar 2021, 14:42
  #734 (permalink)  
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How would you suggest to trigger an integrated ULB? As the current models are set off by immersion into water, that would not work quite well if encased.
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Old 31st Mar 2021, 14:48
  #735 (permalink)  
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Great news - as above I'm sure its been a very tough job. Physically unpleasant .

There's a tendency to slag off the Indonesians on here but they really stuck to this task
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Old 31st Mar 2021, 14:55
  #736 (permalink)  
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Ref post 728. When you see what Airlines are doing to save money / weight / fuel costs I cannot see them duplicating anything.


Modern FDR’s and CVR’s monitor so many things the How it happened & What caused it can now more easily be found. Until such times as Cockpit Video Recorders are installed the Why can sometimes only be conjecture.
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Old 31st Mar 2021, 14:57
  #737 (permalink)  
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Good idea Brian. Better than impractical idea of broadcasting it for ground storage.
Why is that impractical?

Data rates these days are far in excess of what is required, and storage costs absolute peanuts.

Not only could it be used for accident investigation but in these days of big data crunching with machine learning and artificial intelligence, that data could be used for failure prediction. That sort of technology is already used in other operational technologies. In the long run it could pay for itself if predictive maintenance prevents "unplanned events".

And imagine if all of those sequences of events that lead to aircraft loss are combined and analyzed, and pilots could be warned that a seemingly harmless alarm taken in context of other data indicated that a catastrophic failure was in the offing?

Added: And automatically gave him a solution?

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Old 31st Mar 2021, 15:14
  #738 (permalink)  
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The idea of storing CVR and FDR data outside the aircraft has been researched and discussed by all the major international aviation agencies in the recent past (especially ICAO, of course). The notion gained momemtum because of AF447 (recorders eventually located and retrieved) then again because of MH370. Of course the idea has benefits but it also has some significant hurdles.
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Old 31st Mar 2021, 17:24
  #739 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
"More expensive, perhaps, but not impractical."
Or, if all else fails, just attach the ULBs more securely to the memory modules ...
Pretty likely that they are attached feebly by intent in order to protect the memory module. Musk's Starlink will make it all moot soon anyway. There will be thousands of satellites (about 1,500 today?) in low earth orbit serving as communications satellites. Price today is 500 setup + 100 a month for unlimited data.

At present only fixed base stations are supported but that is changing. Not freely available I don't think, still under some sort of test regime with limited coverage.

The commoditization of beam steering, flat plate, phased array antennas may turn out to be Elon Musk's greatest legacy. You probably didn't know you wanted one.

There was someone on another forum they other day who said something like - well it's like a moveable dish but it doesn't move, but I can't say any more 'cos its a military secret. You can now buy them for 500.


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Old 31st Mar 2021, 18:02
  #740 (permalink)  
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It's been discussed to have the CVR and the FDR 'mirror' each other - i.e. have both record the same data. As memory has gotten smaller and cheaper, it's now practical.
It would require some up-front expenditures to add the capabilities, and some wiring changes to the aircraft, but it's certainly 'doable'...

The biggest drawback to 'real time' data download is recurring costs - the satellite band width doesn't come cheap.
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