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Brexit and the Aviation industry

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Brexit and the Aviation industry

Old 26th Dec 2020, 11:41
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
Full text published by the EU this morning.

Pages 221-225 apply.

https://ec.europa.eu/transparency/re...X-1-PART-1.PDF
I canít find a definitive answer. Anyone know?
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Old 26th Dec 2020, 11:57
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by CW247 View Post
I ask again. With Eastern European ACMIs still allowed to provide ultra cheap services to UK airlines using their own European equipment and staff, are British employees at an even greater risk of never finding employment again? Brits will not be able to work for those ACMI providers without a visa. In theory, a UK airline can outsource 50% of its operation out to a company that doesn't need to hire Brits for those jobs. Why am I the only one getting angry about this? There is no protection for the British workforce in any of this.
I don't think this is covered only in this doc. Firstly, the UK airline will need to meet the conditions of its UK AOC - that will be down to the CAA. Secondly, unlesss there is an exemption I've not seen, aircrew will be subject to the same restrictions on working in the UK as any other non-UK national. Who flies the SWG a/c that TUI have used for years?
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Old 26th Dec 2020, 12:14
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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It is without surprise to see yet again the Brexit contingent brush aside the changes as if nothing has happened or will happen. At a stroke we are now unable to work on EASA registered aircraft with our CAA licences. We will no longer be at liberty to move and work in a European country of our choice as British passport holders. This is hugely relevant now that so many have found themselves unemployed. Bases have been reduced in size around Europe and British passport and licence holders have been passed by for redeployment in alternative European bases. Regardless of COVID, junior pilot promotion is now limited to a much reduced UK based platform. It has cost millions to rearrange aircraft registry in order to comply with operational requirements. The CAA has been chopped to bare bones with many ex employees now comfortably employed by EASA. It will therefore take years to re acquire itís full and very expensive functionality. Itís no wonder that EASA wonít accept our licensing. Itís ironic that so many pilots whoís careers and airlineís successes have been based on European integration voted to rebuff all that made it possible in the first place.
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Old 26th Dec 2020, 12:27
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Thereís definitely confusion and jumping the gun going on here.

This Annex doc canít be so one-way as is being made out by some. If it is, thatís not ĎEuropeísí fault but the U.K. negotiatorsí fault.

Hereís hoping the wording isnít deliberately so one-sided as to be laying the groundwork for an eventual return to the EU. That would be travesty.

One question I have (in response to some posters above) is are there many EU airlines that allow their pilots to operate under their U.K. issued EASA licence? I know Ryanair and Aer Lingus make all crews get an Ireland issued licence upon joining. I doubt a full ĎFAA to EASAí type conversion is what is being proposed here.
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Old 26th Dec 2020, 12:30
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Didn't a large number of BA/TUI/TCX/VS pilots vote to leave as a protest against EASA FTLs?
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Old 26th Dec 2020, 13:03
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by deltahotel View Post
DHLAir will be fine, thanks
Will they?

DHL will be fine. On EI- or D- reg.
But I can hardly see G-regs flying for instance LEJ-VIT-OPO. However: LEJ-EMA-DUB on D-/EI- reg is possible. But what about LEJ-EMA-BFS? Would they allow EI-reg to fly that route? Or only G-?

this deal is definately better then no deal. But still a major shit-show
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Old 26th Dec 2020, 13:04
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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D9009

EASA FTL is a bare minimum. All authorities have the freedom to impose stricter FTL’s. Or companies in fact. We have much stricter planning FTL’s for instance then EASA.
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Old 26th Dec 2020, 13:24
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by sprite1 View Post
are there many EU airlines that allow their pilots to operate under their U.K. issued EASA licence?
UK licences won't be valid on EASA aircraft as of 1st January, so the answer is no.
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Old 26th Dec 2020, 13:28
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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EASA FTL are a minimum measure, but they are also binding and enforceable EU regulation, therefore it is legally not possible for member states to require higher limits via their authorities. Companies of course use planning limits that are to a higher safety level. That said, EASA FTL was actually a marked improvement compared to JAR FTL.

Sorry for being completely off topic here.
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Old 26th Dec 2020, 13:49
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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that really depends on what kind of operation you are in. EASA FTL is very generic with a bias to A-B-A passenger operation. But Denti, am I wrong in my understanding that member states could actually impose stricter FTL’s? I always thought they could as long as they met the minimum requirements.
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Old 26th Dec 2020, 13:50
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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DHL, the company, will be absolutely fine. They recruited plenty of European pilots over the last couple of years. That was deliberate no doubt.
But the Brits that haven’t converted their licences to EASA AND also have the right to work in Europe, are particularly vulnerable now.
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Old 26th Dec 2020, 14:40
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SaulGoodman View Post
EASA FTL is a bare minimum. All authorities have the freedom to impose stricter FTLís. Or companies in fact. We have much stricter planning FTLís for instance then EASA.
So no need to leave then
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Old 26th Dec 2020, 14:53
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by D9009 View Post
Didn't a large number of BA/TUI/TCX/VS pilots vote to leave as a protest against EASA FTLs?
It depends what you mean by a "large number". I suspect that not all of the 17.4 million who voted for Brexit were pilots.
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Old 26th Dec 2020, 15:00
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by FlyingStone View Post
UK licences won't be valid on EASA aircraft as of 1st January, so the answer is no.
Thanks. The U.K. negotiators obviously didnít push it for their own reasons.

But just to address the point Iíd made that you referenced in your quote; what EU airlines currently allow U.K. issued licence holders fly for them on their U.K. licences? Iím only aware of airlines requiring their crew to get a licence issued from the airlineís AOC issuing authority.

In other words, how many U.K. issued licence holders are flying in KLM, SAS, Aer Lingus, etc? Iím thinking none. So this Jan 1st changeover is largely arbitrary.

Maybe this affects Corporate Jet pilots more?
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Old 26th Dec 2020, 15:06
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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D9009

There certainly were some Brexit voters at BA who claimed Brexit would inevitably lead to "better" FTLs, not convinced it was a "large number", but certainly some were very vocal on the issue.
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Old 26th Dec 2020, 15:09
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by sprite1 View Post
what EU airlines currently allow U.K. issued licence holders fly for them on their U.K. licences? Iím only aware of airlines requiring their crew to get a licence issued from the airlineís AOC issuing authority.

In other words, how many U.K. issued licence holders are flying in KLM, SAS, Aer Lingus, etc? Iím thinking none. So this Jan 1st changeover is largely arbitrary.
There is a whole world outside of flag carriers and large LCCs, you know. Smaller airlines and operators are normally fairly flexible when it comes to licencing, as the benefits of operating under a unified FCL authority aren't as obvious when you have 2 aircraft and 15 pilots compared to an airline operating hundreds of aircraft and employing thousands of pilots.

I do hope anyone currently operating or wishing to operate EASA aircraft in the future have secured their privilege to do so by moving their SOLI away from UK CAA.
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Old 26th Dec 2020, 15:13
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Yep, fair enough. Smaller operators and corporate jets etc. Not the big carriers.

I still donít think the Licence transfer process will be that difficult once weíre past Jan 1st 2021.

Last edited by sprite1; 26th Dec 2020 at 16:02.
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Old 26th Dec 2020, 15:17
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SaulGoodman View Post
that really depends on what kind of operation you are in. EASA FTL is very generic with a bias to A-B-A passenger operation. But Denti, am I wrong in my understanding that member states could actually impose stricter FTLís? I always thought they could as long as they met the minimum requirements.
As far as i know that is not the case.

There are two levels of EU Ąlawď, EU directives and EU regulation. Directives have to be put into national law in each member state, how they do it and if they put something on top is largely up to them. Regulations are immediately binding law in each member state, implementing regulations can be issued by each member state in a limited member, the EU regulation can not be changed however. EASA FTL i a result of an EU regulation. Companies can apply for and be granted alternate means of compliance (alt MOC), and of course companies and unions can develop much more limiting FTL schemes on their own, subject of approval by EASA (alt MOC) or the local authority.
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Old 26th Dec 2020, 15:26
  #59 (permalink)  

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Quite a few Netjets pilots had UK CAA licences. Not just British pilots. We've had to change them to an EASA state licence, Dutch and Irish were the popular choice.
Hopefully my AME will get EASA approval other wise it's a trip to Amsterdam next year for my medical. At a guess, I'd say we had about 300 pilots with UK CAA licences.
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Old 26th Dec 2020, 15:26
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Dannyboy39 View Post
To say that EASA states do not recognise U.K. CAA as a competent authority under this ruling is simply laughable.
Best Christmas cracker joke of the year. The CAA.. 'competent'

Maybe now they are cut loose from EASA, the CAA and union will be seen by the public as either incompetent or something far more sinister... Guess we will find out in a couple of months time.
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