Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Brexit and the Aviation industry

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Brexit and the Aviation industry

Old 20th May 2021, 21:45
  #281 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Bristol, England
Age: 62
Posts: 1,660
While they are not exclusively to blame, yes, let's blame the CAA. The more I dig into this the greater my conviction that the CAA never really chose to believe that we would leave EASA and never made any real effort to prepare for it. In my area of interest, for instance, I spent 3 years telling them that they needed to set up question banks for post-EASA professional exams and was met with what can only be described as over-confident lies such as "the caa has the capability to create its own question banks". What was done? Nothing. And so when exit day came they appropriated the EASA question banks with a very dodgy attempt to claim that they owned them, really, not EASA. What on earth will happen if EASA successfully apply for an injunction to stop them using them? The answer is no professional pilot exams for the forseeable future. The CAA won't put a Plan B in place because that means admitting that Plan A is dodgy. Let's also look at their legal obligations. They were required to publish a rulemaking process, carefully specified in Article 115 of UK (EU) Reg No 2018/1139 which has requirements for prior consultation when AMCs and Certification Standards are being considered for adoption and an NPA process before adoption. Not done, despite literally years of advance notice and still not done today so all their attempts to adopt EASA AMCs and issue certification standards are not compliant with UK law and in effect ineffective. I complain. The CAA say they won't consider the complaint. Loss of LPV approaches; I told a director of the CAA (a pilot) in late summer last year this was going to happen, he had no idea how EGNOS integrity control worked, said it had not been mentioned to him in briefings. Surprise! Anyone who has close contact with the CAA will be, like me, forming the opinion that they are very close to imploding in a miasma of incompetence and denial.
Alex Whittingham is offline  
Old 20th May 2021, 22:51
  #282 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Paris
Posts: 9
Originally Posted by TURIN View Post
Don't blame the CAA. They didn't sign off on this deal. The UK government did. "An oven ready deal". 🙄
In case youíve forgotten, the CAA is a branch of the Department of Transport. Amongst its other area of responsibilities, FCL falls well and truly within its remit.
Do you think Shapps and his chinless wonder chums understand for one second, the nuances of licence issue and privileges. Not a chance. Thatís what the CAA should have been advising the DofT about, in order that a considered approach could have been made.
Their failure to do so, will impact on UK aviation do quite some time.
Blake Seven is offline  
Old 20th May 2021, 23:03
  #283 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Southern England
Posts: 354
I think you are being rather harsh on the CAA. The UK Government in its pursuit of Brexit was never going to be "advised" by anybody who tried to explain to them the inevitable pitfalls of the path they were pursuing. Such advice was "Project Fear" and organisations that dared to speak truth unto power were at best sidelined and ignored. I suspect they hoped that at some point reason would prevail and the obvious insanity of leaving EASA would be avoided. The trouble is that logic holds no sway when political ideology takes hold.
eglnyt is offline  
Old 21st May 2021, 00:42
  #284 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: UK
Age: 56
Posts: 3,201
The CAA probably got the same letter I did from the Minister in charge. I quote "we do not expect to be leaving EASA". I still have the letter!
TURIN is offline  
Old 21st May 2021, 06:30
  #285 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Neither here or there
Posts: 210
So if Iíve got this right, the UK CAA have now made it a straightforward application process for non-UK EASA licence holders to obtain a U.K. licence and fly U.K. registered aircraft.
Even those that have NOT previously held a U.K. licence. Fill out a form, cough up the fee and youíre good to go...
If that EASA license holder does not have pre Brexit employment rights, his UK license will be useless as any employment without a work visa (which needs to be justified by the employer) would be illegal. This may seem one sided but was clearly done so that the many hundreds of Brits with foreign licenses could continue to gain employment with UK employers. Imagine, what the outcome would be if those people who lost their jobs due to Covid had to retrain and relicence just to be employed at home. This would be even less palatable.

The topic cannot be looked at in isolation. Work rights, who was here and employed before Brexit vs who was not makes all the difference. Airlines have to adjust their AOCs and new ones must have a justified reason for wet leasing non UK reg aircraft. Even Ryanair have been challenged over having a UK AOC but leasing EI reg planes to run it and major changes are expected if they want to co tonue to do business out of the UK.

The net advantage, say a Pole or Spaniard has over a Brit to be employed for the first time in the UK post Brexit is zero.
CW247 is offline  
Old 21st May 2021, 06:46
  #286 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: IRS NAV ONLY
Posts: 1,121
Originally Posted by Blake Seven View Post
Seems that Aviation, along with Fishing and Farming has been sold a pup and lied to about the benefits of Brexit.
Lied? This government? Surely they would never even think about such a thing.

Originally Posted by CW247 View Post
Even Ryanair have been challenged over having a UK AOC but leasing EI reg planes to run it and major changes are expected if they want to co tonue to do business out of the UK.
Unless they want to expand in the UK domestic market or increase the capacity to non-EU destinations, very little - if anything - has to change. An EU company can base unlimited amount EU-registered aircraft in the UK if they only operate UK-EU flights and vice versa, such is the trade agreement as it stands today.
FlyingStone is offline  
Old 21st May 2021, 07:20
  #287 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: I wouldn't know.
Posts: 4,303

Actually, wet leasing is not in any way restricted by the UK leaving the EU, the TCA makes sure of that, at least for UK companies. The other way round is only available in exceptional circumstances. The UK CAA might take issue with the ryanair approach of having just one UK registered aircraft on the UK AOC and leasing in all the rest, but in less extreme cases there is absolutely no restriction at all. Even less so if they simply fire their UK based personnel for EU-UK flights and do those flights from the other end with their EU AOCs, an approach that is not limited to this special case but can be applied quite widely elsewhere as well. IIRC ryanair used that for a while with their french bases, easyjet is now doing that with their german base etc.
Denti is offline  
Old 21st May 2021, 12:54
  #288 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: The South
Posts: 126
I am sure that Mr G SHapps can provide a solution similar to the one he uses on his own aeroplane. FAA licence and all aircraft registered on an N prefix in the US..........
Timmy Tomkins is offline  
Old 24th Jun 2021, 09:59
  #289 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2021
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 18
With all this in mind. What would be the most logical licensing choice (UK CAA or EASA) for a future UK pilot to maximise career opportunities? If I want to work in the EU I need a job offer from an EU airline and thus an EASA license, but if for some other reason I am not granted a work visa then I am stuck in the UK and unable to fly for any company. This is my interpretation as things stand. correct me if I am wrong. But with the high volume of air travel between the UK and EU I expect a resort back to similar rules as pre-Brexit once this Covid crisis is dealt with where EASA and UK CAA are mutually recognized and non-limiting on what aircraft you can fly and where.
Note - I am currently looking at flight schools and wether or not to pursue a UK CAA or EASA license - are UK citizens even allowed to go for EASA licenses with the current rules? I have done my research on line but can't find any conclusive information.
futurepilot22 is offline  
Old 24th Jun 2021, 10:35
  #290 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 75
As a UK citizen, you have the right to live and work in the Republic of Ireland under the CTA rules, and could therefore be based in the RoI. Live full-time for five years in the RoI and you would be eligible for an Irish passport. Marry an Irish person and live full-time in Ireland for 3 years and you'd then be eligible for an Irish passport.
papabravowhiskey is offline  
Old 24th Jun 2021, 11:15
  #291 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: South West
Posts: 98
HEMS chap

Babcock at Staverton have EASA ATO approval, EASA sim approval and EASA examiners so that might be a good route. I expect an initial licence as opposed to a conversion might require the test to be done in a member state (heard this was the case for an initial EASA IR under the IAA). Might be easier than you think.
gipsymagpie is offline  
Old 24th Jun 2021, 11:36
  #292 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 6,166

"Where" as in "I can fly from the UK to anywhere in Europe and then come back"?

Hopefully that'll return PDQ post Covid.

"Where" as in whereabouts you are based/employed?

Freedom of movement for work purposes into/around the EU for Brits has gone - I'd strongly caution making plans based on the assumption that that is coming back anytime soon.

Last edited by wiggy; 24th Jun 2021 at 14:35. Reason: Clarity
wiggy is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.