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Air Djibouti B737 has a serious prang

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Air Djibouti B737 has a serious prang

Old 7th Dec 2020, 10:05
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Checkboard

Does that mean you can fly a fully passenger loaded Airbus 330 on a national fligth without fire coverage?
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Old 7th Dec 2020, 13:23
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Yep.

So I was flying, BAe 146 and 737-300 aircraft services to places like Kununurra (YPKU), Gove (YPGV), Ayers Rock (YAYE) and so on, without any fire support.

Quite simply (and sensibly in my opinion) the government looked at aviation statistics and said - the money it costs isn't worth it.

What is the difference in risk to operating domestic or international ? You might, for example, abbandon take-off, burst tyres, catch fire but only in Oz would there be no risk as the flight was "domestic".
No difference in risk per movement - international airports have higher movement rates and so a higher risk of actually using the fire service, but mostly because international carriers require the service to use the airport as an ICAO standard. Domestic services can be regualted under Australian law.

Sorry Checkers, I don't believe it.
The disestablishment of ARFFS may be considered when the number of annual passengers on air transport falls below 300,000 and remains below this level for a 12-month period. The ARFFS provider shall provide CASA with a Safety Case which should justify the closure of the ARFFS.
https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2008C00128

Last edited by Checkboard; 7th Dec 2020 at 13:47.
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Old 8th Dec 2020, 01:05
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Tajiskistan if you allow my correction...
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Old 8th Dec 2020, 06:36
  #24 (permalink)  
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Yes you can.
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Old 8th Dec 2020, 11:18
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Checkboard, my mate, Landflap has been banned and unable to thank you for your clarification (just had him on the phone before he enters the PPRuNe jail until release date later in December) but I too, share astonishment that the Ozie Regulators put commercial interest ahead of Flight Safety. No desire to creap the thread but it is a very interesting situation. As briefly as I can,; my first trip in LHS on 737-200 was into Malaga just after a DC10 went off the end of the rwy and caught fire. After holding pending long discussion with ATC, airfield was declared open. We were first in. Only on the ground and preparing for departure did we realise that while the airfield was "open", there was no fire cover. All fire vehicles were in attendance at the crash-site and not available for departures (or arrivals, presumably).

Big row with the Airport Director, over the phone, over Regulatory Authority etc for declaring an airfield open with no fire cover. After long delays, everyone else started up & left even though I repeatedly, over the air, asked ATC to confirm that the airfield was "open" although with no fire cover.

Tight spot for a new four-ringer eh ? Technically the airfield should have been closed to all traffic. For safety, as well, my prime consideration, I stuck it out, until ATC declared full fire cover & airfield fully operational..
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Old 8th Dec 2020, 12:44
  #26 (permalink)  
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Gordomac, just a remark , the ICAO provisions for ARFF are contained in Annex 14. However those are just standards and recommended practices. States may or may not follow the Annex 14 recommendations . So what is valid for country A is not necessary valid for country B. For instance if a Country A ( take USA/FAA for instance ) mandates ARFF from a certain category of commercial aircraft ., but country B allows exemptions during emergencies ( which was maybe your case in Malaga ) or diversions , You may select a diversion airport where ARFF is non existent or not manned ( Greenland ones are good example. ) I do not know the Regulations are applicable to Somalia, but I am pretty sure they do not follow the FAA or UK ones...

That said, regarding your decision in Malaga , will fly with you anytime ...
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Old 9th Dec 2020, 13:39
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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... and on top of that, my current operator has minimum RFF coverage in the Ops Manual.. In the situation above (ATC allowing departures with RFF zero) I would have to phone the duty pilot for the Ops Manual exemption, even if the operation was legal in country.
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Old 9th Dec 2020, 17:20
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Checkboard, imho, it's typically not a 'duty pilot' whom grants an Ops Manual 'exemption' (and if he / she does that then they're an idiot, imho... and the aircraft Commander's an even bigger idiot for accepting it)... it's the manager of the Compliance Dept (probably working in conjunction with the Manager of the Safety Dept) whom has to make a safety case, i.e. to operate outside of the approved Ops Manual requirements as laid down & approved by the relevant National Aviation Authority (NAA) of the country where the airline's AOC / OL is held... wherein a case for AMC (Alternative Means of Compliance) has to be made to that NAA and it is they (the NAA and it's on-duty Flight Ops Inspector / FOI plus his / her compliance team working with them) whom then grant permission for any such variance to occur.

Just imagine a case where an airline 'duty pilot' gave his / her permission to operate into / out of an airfield without any RFF cover and something then occurred that involved either damage to the aircraft and / or injuries (or worse) to the pax and which required that RFF be immediately available (but it wasn't) ?! In that instance, do you have any idea of the sort of shit-storm that would (very rightly) rain down upon the airline's Accountable Manager's head (plus all others involved) from the NAA above him (above them) ?!!

Last edited by King Chile; 9th Dec 2020 at 17:38.
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Old 9th Dec 2020, 18:39
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Ah - sorry. Wrong terminology, perhaps. That section of the ops manual (as it's a company limit) includes a section that allows the Duty Pilot to change the limit on a case-by-case basis.

As I used to fly regularly into and out of airports with no fire cover, I am completely comfortable with that.
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Old 9th Dec 2020, 21:42
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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It's all well & good you yourself being 'completely comfortable with that'... BUT, the days of taking liberties with stuff like that are (or certainly should be) consigned to the bin of history, and that's because that's not what fare paying pax, and / or NAA's, and / or the leasing companies & banks whom probably own the aircraft that you're flying, and / or the insurance company whom insure the aircraft, etc, are 'comfortable with'.

Or is it that you are selling tickets to the fare paying public albeit without disclosing to them that you are operating to / from airports at which various expected safety elements either do not exist or are not operational?... and have you told your NAA... and your aircraft's insurance company... and its leasing company... that you're operating with additional risk (possibly circumventing the NAA regulations in the process and / or failing to fully disclose what you're doing to all the aforementioned parties) all because you yourself have decided that you are 'comfortable with that' ?

Accordingly, it's not about you and what you might think is 'acceptable'; wherein there's a far bigger picture involved here, i.e. wrt regulation, risk management & liabilities therefrom. Like it or not, this is the face of modern airline aviation.
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Old 9th Dec 2020, 23:42
  #31 (permalink)  
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As this thread has drifted to a crash fire rescue thread...

Quite simply (and sensibly in my opinion) the government looked at aviation statistics and said - the money it costs isn't worth it.
Anywhere I read the word "government" I ask myself if I should substitute the word "people", as the government is most commonly using the people's money.

So the people make a considered decision about funding CFR (or not) at a certain place. Okay, the people make a decision about services, other people can then decide if they want to fly in or not. It's not just airplanes that we're talking about, there are many times that an assumption one might make about emergency services available to them is overly optimistic - will someone come to my rescue if I need them? As a retired volunteer firefighter, I have given consideration to emergency services throughout my various travels and activities. I recall staying in a tropical resort, in a twenty storey hotel, for which the local fire department had only on small pumper truck, with very limited equipment, and only two storeys worth of ladders. If my hotel were on fire, most occupants would be mostly on their own. But the hotel accommodation was low cost compared to my home nation.

I landed as a passenger on an A330 at a less common airport. I happened to visit the CFR station during my visit. They were okay equipped. The firefighter who hosted me told me that he'd worked there for five years, and the only fire they had ever attended was a kitchen fire at a nearby house. The was an expensive place to fly into.

The people will fund emergency services to the level they can afford, and feel satisfactory. Then it's the choice of other people to accept that or not. Sitting in judgement of CFR services is not of much use, unless you would like to fund the service.

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Old 10th Dec 2020, 03:39
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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there's a far bigger picture involved here, i.e. wrt regulation, risk management & liabilities therefrom. Like it or not, this is the face of modern airline aviation
How far does that picture extend, you may have RFF but does the town/city have the medical facilities to cope with the aftermath, numerous severe injuries/deaths? DAR's final para is the reality, as is his entire post.
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Old 10th Dec 2020, 09:30
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Just a round-off ; Checkboard : I was distinctly uncomfortable having just been given full responsibility for the safety of the aircraft, all contents & crew (brand new Commander) by departing. I learned later that the Commercial Director of my company asked the Ops director to "lean" on me a bit as the delay protracted. The latter asked, on telephone "What do you think....?...." I , again, refused to compromise safety and he said "only decision, well done" and supported me throughout. Some seriously big names in aviation departed and took the risk. Only me & spantax left after ATC confirmed full cover.

5 hours on the ground. First trip in Command and into discretion to complete, stacks of paperwork but slept soundly.
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Old 10th Dec 2020, 10:27
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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As SLF we may have a choice but do we know that we have a choice to make? When booking a flight to or from an airport with no ARFF is this fact stated? We (as passengers) can only make a choice if we are made aware of the fact in the first place.
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Old 10th Dec 2020, 14:11
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Accordingly, it's not about you and what you might think is 'acceptable';
Of course not - I said that the Duty Pilot makes that call, in conjunction with the permissions in the manual. As commander, I can of course apply a higher standard - but I wouldn't because I would be comfortable with operating that way. As commander, I make decisions like that on behalf of my passengers all of the time - that's what the job entails.

As SLF we may have a choice but do we know that we have a choice to make?
Your flight is covered by the rules and regulations in force, and the professionalism of the airline and crew to apply those R&Rs. I wouldn't inform you (as a passenger) of something like this, in the same way that I wouldn't inform you of various bits of unserviceable equipment that may be on the aircraft that day. We don't run airline services by passenger democracy votes (thank goodness!)
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Old 10th Dec 2020, 15:15
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Re #24 I was at Malaga when the Iberia DC 10 abandoned at high speed and went off the end hitting a car and narrowly missing a convoy of Saudi Royals. It burned-out within minutes
We then had the"Clear to start no fire cover message " Several flights did so.I waited,it took about 6 hours to get limited fire cover restored.
To my surprise I received a "Well done " letter from the company
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Old 10th Dec 2020, 15:41
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BRUpax View Post
When booking a flight to or from an airport with no ARFF is this fact stated?
This thread has indeed drifted a lot from the original event and region. Rest assured, in most parts of the world there are no such airports, and regulations would not permit any to operate, so it is rather unlikely that you would ever be faced with this choice. (Oz apparently being an exception of which I was not aware...)

However the incident happened on a flight linking three provinces of Somalia, two of which have self-proclaimed independence, and have not quite yet decided if they are at war or peace with each other. On average, an aeroplane gets bent somewhere in the region every other month. On average, one bus gets bent on the roads every night. And then we have not even mentioned 'technical' difficulties (for people unfamiliar with the term, look here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technical_(vehicle)) and the lions behind the bush selected for the toilet... Yes, the people taking the aeroplane are well aware of the choices they face, and lack of ARFF is the least of the concerns
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Old 10th Dec 2020, 15:48
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Checkboard View Post
We don't run airline services by passenger democracy votes (thank goodness!)
Not a clue what you mean by that. All I'm saying is that if a professional airline (as in Australia for example) chooses to operate into an airport without adequate ARFF I reserve the right to make the decision not to fly to/from that airport. It would be quite simple to indicate on the booking engine that XYZ Airport does not provide the necessary emergency services. What that has to do with passenger democracy votes you will have to explain to me! As for MELs, that, at least for me, is not an issue.
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Old 10th Dec 2020, 17:36
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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XYZ Airport does not provide the necessary emergency services
The point is that XYZ is supplying the necessary service - which at that airport are "none required".
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Old 10th Dec 2020, 21:40
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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The FAA report quoted in "Accidents and Close Calls" is relevant to informing passengers.
As a basic PPL, I hit a fence on the island of Stronsay in Scotland. As I vacated the cockpit after shutting down, the fire vehicle was coming towards me. The farmer had seen me abort takeoff, driven his tractor towards the airfield, and taken the firewagon. He was not on duty, as that was only for commercial passenger flights.
Fire cover need not cost a fortune.
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