Qantas vaccine. IATA Health Passport.

[Sepp]

Originally Posted by Justanothervoice

sprite1
... Just how many people do you think die on a day to day basis? Id wager that if you die with a positive covid test, chances are you died from covid or it certainly contributed...very very few people die from accidents or out of the blue so can we just drop that line now? It may be comforting but it's just ridiculous.

Actions have consequences.

That is quite easily answered. From the official monthly mortality analysis for England and Wales:

"In October 2020, there were 43,265 deaths registered in England, 2,713 deaths more than the five-year average (2015 to 2019) for October; in Wales, there were 2,992 deaths registered, 258 deaths more than the five-year average for October.".

So in England on average, in October, approximately 1352 deaths per day. This year: approx 1442; or, approx 90 a day more than usual.

[swh]

Originally Posted by PilotLZ

It's not a unique situation. From some decades ago until present days, many countries have always had a requirement for any entrant or visa applicant to have certain vaccines. In many other countries, certain vaccines are mandatory for children to attend school. Some vaccines or proof of being free of certain communicable diseases are also among the requirements to apply for citizenship or a residence permit in many countries. The COVID one will be just another one, not something unique and unprecedented.

I still have my WHO international certificate of vaccination for yellow fever, the vaccination is not very effective as still find Asians attractive.

Originally Posted by derjodel

Here's the thing: vaccines are not 100% safe. The argument that the benefits out-weight the cost is not ethical, as in reality it is saying: it is acceptable to either kill or severely cripple few for the benefit of the many.

It is true that some people have serious side effects to vaccines, be those people with egg allergies and the flu shot or others. What is disingenuous is that vaccines are administered under medical supervision. They would either have to wait in the surgery for a period of time after receiving the vaccination and then told if any sort of reaction takes place to to call an ambulance.

Originally Posted by davidjohnson6

If there is evidence that the vaccine significantly reduces the level of infectiousness, then there is a much stronger argument for requiring all pax to be vaccinated. However, I haven't see that evidence. Has anybody else ?

A vaccine does not make a virus any less virulent, what it does is prevents one infected person to cause widespread infections as more people they come in contact with either have immunity for having the virus or have been vaccinated do not become infected. It is unlikely that that community infection rate will be zero, however the community transmission rate will be far lower. Where vaccines will save more lives is for people people who come in contact with those in higher risk, if they have been vaccinated they will not transmit the virus to those who are most vulnerable, and may themselves be unable to get vaccinated.

Originally Posted by 302szd55

A question not yet raised on here is Insurance. Next year I can well imagine that travel insurance companies will have separate policies (more expensive?) for people who choose not to be vaccinated, as they will pose a greater risk of falling ill whilst on their Summer trip to the sun. This may change a few minds.

The insurance companies may simply decline to provide insurance unless a vaccination record is obtained prior to travel. They already do similar when traveling to countries where diseases are known and vaccinations are available, they won’t cover you. They may for example cover someone to NZ that hasn’t been vaccinated however not cover travel to the US.

[b1lanc]

Originally Posted by Less Hair

This vaccine has been rushed to availability and not been carefully examined like had been required before. The sudden presentation of at least two vaccines seems to correlate to the US presidential election. Maybe it was rushed again to be available in time? While I agree that some fully developed vaccination will make a lot of sense it is warranted to be sceptical about what is made available right now. To try to force it on people with all the known shortcuts that had to be taken is even wilder.

It feels a bit like those aircraft rushed through development in WW2. Having known deficits but built by the thousands anyway.

Might call this the Max vaccine keeping in mind that all pharmaceutical companies are profit driven just like B.

The word rush is open to interpretation. Looking back at the Salk and Sabin tests, the studies were of short duration relatively speaking - some might have called them rushed in retrospect. I got the shot and the sugar cube. I would say I'm less concerned about the rush to develop it (wish they could cure cancer with that kind of effort), but more concerned with the rush to manufacture and distribute and there is precedent for that concern. The Cutter production issues of Salk is one example.

I doubt a few major pharmaceuticals will be able to push out the quantity required world wide, so out-sourcing is likely. Who produces the concoction that they want to inject into my family? Are they going to sub to New England Compounding (might want to read that episode in 2012 in which people getting epidurals wound up with meningitis - 100 died of 14,000 administered - a bit more significant percentage than the 1 in 100,000 that seems to be the norm quoted everywhere for severe adverse reactions)? Quality control then becomes an important metric, the data for which likely won't surface for some time due to the vast amounts of potential injectees. And one can never discount the potential for permanent risk (Swine Flu and GBS - see CDC website on historical safety).

Scientists aren't infallible (except for Einstein maybe). Corporations are immensely capable of mistakes in judgement, faulty production, and design. We have always reviewed efficacy vs. risk in administration of 'new' vaccines. Yes, our 5 kids got MMR and DPT, but we drew the line initially on Chicken Pox. Our 3 oldest got it on their own accord. Our two youngest received the vaccine or we would have had to home school them. We have no idea if that was a prudent decision and only decades after we are gone, will the data likely be available to confirm.

I contracted encephalitis when younger. Of the 12 cases diagnosed in my state that year, I was the only person to survive. Ruined my flying career but oh well. Now, it really is beyond belief but I can get an encephalitis vaccine for my horses but not for me. Why not? Profit and they put the word equine in front of it.

Working in a military environment where everyone gets every vaccine known to mankind prior to deployment, the results are unclear. I have heard some horror stories. I will say I do not trust the Government to make health decisions on my families behalf. To have an airline CEO make that decision for me is beyond the pale. Suffice to say, we will never fly again by choice - and that is sad - I love to fly but not enough to show my medical records prior to boarding.

[JustinHeywood]

Originally Posted by b1lanc

....The Cutter production issues of Salk is one example.

.... I have heard some horror stories. I will say I do not trust the Government to make health decisions on my families behalf. To have an airline CEO make that decision for me is beyond the pale. Suffice to say, we will never fly again by choice - and that is sad - I love to fly but not enough to show my medical records prior to boarding.

So you routinely accept the minuscule risk inherent in flying but won't accept the even more minuscule risk in vaccination? Nobody ever said that vaccination is 100% safe - nothing is. Billions of vaccines have been administered, but aside from the anecdotal 'horror stories', the fact that you cite an example of vaccine injury (the Cutter incident) dating back more than 60 years should indicate to you that perhaps any vaccine risk is in fact very low.

[megan]

Now, it really is beyond belief but I can get an encephalitis vaccine for my horses but not for me. Why not? Profit and they put the word equine in front of it

You can get a jab for some encephalitis causes, Japanese and Tick for example,. Causes of encephalitis include viruses such as herpes simplexvirus and rabies as well as bacteria, fungi, or parasites. Other causes include autoimmune diseases and certain medications. In many cases the cause remains unknown. Risk factors include a weak immune system.

I really thought QF always respected people beliefs and religions....this is getting simply ridiculous...sad to read this ...

QF is respecting the rights of folks who don't want to be with antivaxxers, you can't please everyone, the majority win.

[George Glass]

It is one of modern lifes great mysteries that one of the truely great inventions of modern medicine that has save countless millions of lives , namely vaccination , has ended up in this place.
Why do people feel the need to express opinions about subjects they know nothing about ?
Why do stupid people feel that they can argue with people with years of qualifications and experience ?
Why is trust in institutions so low ?
Fin de siècle?
Is the run of the Enlightenment over ?
Social media ?
Because one thing is for certain. If the anti-vaxers and wacko fellow travellers ever become a majority we are done.
China wins.
Game over. Long slow,inevitable decline.
FFS get a grip people.
Compulsory vaccination was standard 50 years ago.
It exterminated smallpox.
FFS

[Check Airman]

Originally Posted by George Glass

It is one of modern lifes great mysteries that one of the truely great inventions of modern medicine that has save countless millions of lives , namely vaccination , has ended up in this place.
Why do people feel the need to express opinions about subjects they know nothing about ?
Why do stupid people feel that they can argue with people with years of qualifications and experience ?
Why is trust in institutions so low ?
Fin de siècle?
Is the run of the Enlightenment over ?
Social media ?
Because one thing is for certain. If the anti-vaxers and wacko fellow travellers ever become a majority we are done.
China wins.
Game over. Long slow,inevitable decline.
FFS get a grip people.
Compulsory vaccination was standard 50 years ago.
It exterminated smallpox.
FFS

There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge" - Isaac Asimov

[FlightlessParrot]

Surely the QANTAS decision is purely commercial. If a passenger contracts Covid-19 on one of their flights, especially if the USA is involved, they might be held liable. They would therefore wish to take all reasonable precautions against that risk: both because they wouldn't want anyone to be infected, and because, if they were, such an action would be part of a defence against accusations of negligence; again, a reasonable precaution against having their ass sued off.

Nothing to do with governmental over-reach, New World Order, Bill Gates, or the threat to our vital bodily fluids.

[ams6110]

The debate here shows we've lost the ability to have nuanced discussion. If you're not an unreserved advocate for immediate COVID vaccination well then you're an "anti-vaxxer." There's no allowance for anything in between.

I have all the usual vaccinations. My children have them as well; I never questioned it. There is a difference between well-established safe vaccinations against diseases with high mortality or serious lasting effects among children and young healthy people and vaccinations against a virus with a mortality slightly higher than a bad flu mostly limited to the very old. Especially for a virus that we learned about 10 months ago, for vaccines that have been rushed through the normal protocols, with only preliminary results as to efficacy, by pharmaceutical companies that have been granted immunity from any liability. For them this situation is is as close to a license to print money as they ever get. Surely there is no chance they would take any shortcuts, cherry pick their data, or bury unfavorable results. On top of all that, it happened in an election cycle and the media and the candidates made it a wedge issue.

By all means if you are old or otherwise high risk or just feel the need, and feel safer with a vaccine, then queue up.

I will wait until the hysteria dies down, look at what we know at that time, and make my own decision. If that makes me an anti-vaxxer in your mind, that is your problem.

[FlightlessParrot]

ams
There are, to be sure, rational grounds for being cautious about the new vaccines: chiefly, that the only way to find out about long-term consequences is to let a long time pass. I can well understand a young person, in good health, concluding that they would rather take the risk of catching the disease than being one of the first to be vaccinated. This also makes it easy to decide the initial allocation of vaccine: it should go to those who are most at risk, and have least reason to be concerned about the long run (you know who you are: get a new credit card, look at the expiry date, and you're all "Hmm, I wonder...").

The problem is that even such rational concerns have got caught up in the politicisation of reality. As far as I know, Big Pharma does not make Big Money out of vaccines: what the pharma companies like are patented drugs that are important for the chronic management of diseases of the affluent. Similarly, outrage about the suggestion of vaccination being conditional for any activity is tied up with belief that the pandemic has been weaponised as a political wedge issue. Like so many other sad things, "only in America"; and it's not the people who want sensible public health measures who are weaponising it. The reason that rational hesitations get lumped in with the bat-shirt crazy is that even the rational gets entangled with the irrational.

[dr dre]

ams6110

And how are you able to distinguish, with what I assume is minimal medical or scientific knowledge, whether or not the vaccine will safe beyond the large array of scientists, researchers, health experts, doctors etc who will have already put this vaccine through an incredibly thorough approval process?

I'll refer to Isaac Asimov's quote made earlier on this thread - "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge".

Yes, in a free society you can be allowed to refuse vaccination. But don't be surprised when you are shunned by the rest of society and things like air travel and your kids being allowed to attend school are denied to you.

[SWBKCB]

Being vaccinated against Covid-19 is likely to become a prerequisite of flying internationally with Qantas, according to the airline’s chief executive Alan Joyce.

Apologies if I've missed it - but how will you prove to Qantas that you've been vaccinated?

[dr dre]

International Certificate of Vaccination passport. It's a yellow hardcopy booklet that any traveler who's needed vaccinations to travel to some nations will be familiar with, but new technology may allow a digital passport to be used as well.

It will probably be required to be shown to Customs or Quarantine staff over airline staff.

[Check Airman]

Originally Posted by dr dre

And how are you able to distinguish, with what I assume is minimal medical or scientific knowledge, whether or not the vaccine will safe beyond the large array of scientists, researchers, health experts, doctors etc who will have already put this vaccine through an incredibly thorough approval process?

This is the question I often ask. How does your training in aviation make you a sufficient authority on biomedical matters that you think you can argue with people who have decades of experience in that field?

[JustinHeywood]

There seems an awful lot of people here who object to be called ‘anti-vax, ’ yet are in fact ....anti vaccination.


‘Big Pharma!’
‘Government conspiracy!’
‘It’s my body, I will not be dictated to!’

All straight out of the anti-vax line of bs.
Don’t kid yourselves. You’re right there with the unscientific, self absorbed, Dunning-Kruger exemplars.

[dr dre]

Originally Posted by Check Airman

This is the question I often ask. How does your training in aviation make you a sufficient authority on biomedical matters that you think you can argue with people who have decades of experience in that field?

It doesn't.

It all comes down to conspiracy theorists, people who want to feel smarter than the "so called experts", the Dunning Kruger effect, well meaning people unfortunately influenced by persuasive voices in media and social media and those with an ideological agenda.

Having a browse at the biographies of the development team of one of the vaccines, I can see university professor, Pharmaceutical Science head, immunotherapy association President, Chief Medical Officer and doctorates in Medicine. So unless some of the ones here think they know more about vaccines than the above people having secretly been moonlighting as vaccine researchers then they are totally full of it, and are spreading misinformation en masse. Disinformation and discredited theories have already taken a toll on healthcare workers and have probably exacerbated the spread of the virus. My hope is these discredited opinions are very quickly debunked by informed professionals.

[BBK]

I don’t think this discussion is a debate by any stretch of the imagination. I’ve not seen one interview with a medical expert who has questioned the safety of the new vaccines being unveiled. In fact the experts I have seen have said that all vaccines in the past had a risk associated with them. The point is that the tiny risk vastly outweighed the damage that the diseases could incur. Vaccines, like aviation, are never going to one hundred percent safe.

There’s an interesting article on the BBC website where they interview one of the scientists involved in the Oxford vaccine. She explains how her team, after witnessing the effects of SARS and MERS, were waiting for the next respiratory virus to occur. When she heard the reports emanating from Wuhan of a mystery virus the team went into action. The same article also explains how a process that would normally take years was streamlined. Not by cutting corners but that a lot of the delays in the past were procedural like getting approval and funding. I think there is an analogy with aviation development during the two world wars. Then the R&D community were throwing the kitchen sink into solving hitherto difficult problems.

The other thing that has been discussed is the issue of whether an airline should or could mandate vaccination before allowing a passenger that fly. If they make it compulsory then fair enough. If the anti vax brigade object then just find another airline to go with. The only problem I suspect they’ll have is that governments might mandate a vaccination certificate before entry irrespective of how you enter the country. Good luck!

evyjet

Thank you for proving my point! One of the scientists I’ve watched explained that the virus does NOT affect the DNA. My non medical understanding is that some of the vaccines effectively “tip off” the immune system as to the presence of the virus. I’ve read the term messenger RNA in respect of the way the vaccine works. I freely confess I have no idea what the difference between DNA and RNA which is why I listen to those that do.

[Less Hair]

Maybe Mr. Joyce should set an example and get the first vaccination himself to report about it before he requests others to get one?

[Bull at a Gate]

I was reading this thread, getting depressed at the number of people who have no idea about the simplest of scientific principles, and then I got to “the vaccine alters the host’s DNA” which gave me a good laugh!

Please tell me that you are not all professional pilots!

[Radgirl]

The good news is that we can simply ignore the anti vaxxers. We only need to vaccinate just over half a population with a 95% efficacy vaccine to get herd immunity.

Many of our countries have 70% of the population happy, willing, indeed keen to be vaccinated. Most of the remaining 30% are not anti vaxxers but merely people who dont want to go first, who have questions or who doubt the advantage of suppression. To those who want indeed deserve more information can I answer two of the issues raised in previous posts?

First it is not true that Pfizer or anyone else has been given legal immunity for this vaccine. Vaccines have been treated differently from drugs for many years and countries have agreed to assume legal responsibility for complications with licensed vaccines as liability resting with manufacturers was shown to fail claimants. The mechanism varies from country to country but ensures good uptake and a much simplified method of managing any complications that arise. The current Covid 19 vaccines are merely being dealt with in exactly the same way using current legislations

Second the idea of rushing through testing is misleading. Science has been fantastic at identifying the virus, mapping the DNA and developing mRNA vaccines. We would have taken years to do so a decade ago, but it is because of research and development of these methods for cancer treatment. The actual testing of a vaccine however is not the same as the testing for a drug. When we test a drug we need to give it to X thousand people and see what happens. When we test a vaccine we give it until we get so many cases of the disease and then deblind the study to see if more placebo recipients became ill than vaccinated volunteers. Because we have had so many million cases of Covid 19 we have been able to vaccinate enough people with vaccine or placebo to reach enough volunteers who became ill much faster than if we were studying a vaccine for a less common infection. The Phase 1, 2 and 3 studies are as robust as any other vaccine.

As a doctor I will be first in line to be vaccinated as soon as it is offered and I know almost all healthcare workers feel the same. Together with 70% of our populations who want the vaccine we can suppress Covid 19, hopefully within 6 months, and even save the lives of the anti vaxxers. Ironic