Qantas vaccine. IATA Health Passport.
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Who said either I or my kids are not vaccinated? I only stated that It should, no, must be my choice alone.
The "I'm no medical expert" argument is a red herring. To understand potential cause and effect one must understand data. To explain how that effect works, one must be a medical expert. I have some background in statistics. Experience has unfortunately showed me that my understanding of statistics and probability is superior to that of an average MD. Worse, I had a (non-vaccine) related medical emergency where my kid could have died if I didn't catch the doctor's mistake in the treatment (they prescribed too low dose for the kid's weight). So yeah, trust, but verify.
The real problem is, understanding stats means understanding that there is no safe choice. There are only different risks, with different probabilities (sometimes hard do assess due to lack of good quality data). Making that choice is terrifying.
The "I'm no medical expert" argument is a red herring. To understand potential cause and effect one must understand data. To explain how that effect works, one must be a medical expert. I have some background in statistics. Experience has unfortunately showed me that my understanding of statistics and probability is superior to that of an average MD. Worse, I had a (non-vaccine) related medical emergency where my kid could have died if I didn't catch the doctor's mistake in the treatment (they prescribed too low dose for the kid's weight). So yeah, trust, but verify.
The real problem is, understanding stats means understanding that there is no safe choice. There are only different risks, with different probabilities (sometimes hard do assess due to lack of good quality data). Making that choice is terrifying.
Isn't it a bit strange for an airline to make that decision?
If Australia mandates vaccination as a prerequisite to entry so be it. But the airline ?
In any case we are still very, very early in the process. Even if those miracle (both in terms of efficiency and time to market) vaccine deliver the logistics are quite complex...
If Australia mandates vaccination as a prerequisite to entry so be it. But the airline ?
In any case we are still very, very early in the process. Even if those miracle (both in terms of efficiency and time to market) vaccine deliver the logistics are quite complex...
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I'm going to have to reread this whole thread . . . here, I had been given to understand that, once not so long ago, polio was a dread disease which medical science and good medical practice alike were essentially powerless to stop or to cure. Then a vaccine was found, and administered widely. If there are unwanted adverse events from the vaccine, it has been said that medical science is not perfect - nothing human is - but the dread disease was conquered, except for very statistically rare instances of proof of the noted imperfection. But Russian Roulette is the comparison, eh? Better get rereading, then.....
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Isn't it a bit strange for an airline to make that decision?
If Australia mandates vaccination as a prerequisite to entry so be it. But the airline ?
In any case we are still very, very early in the process. Even if those miracle (both in terms of efficiency and time to market) vaccine deliver the logistics are quite complex...
If Australia mandates vaccination as a prerequisite to entry so be it. But the airline ?
In any case we are still very, very early in the process. Even if those miracle (both in terms of efficiency and time to market) vaccine deliver the logistics are quite complex...
what has this world come to.
It’s going to be a combination of old and new, I think. Old, in that to access various countries you’re going to have to provide proof of vaccination and probably have a test for CV-19 as well, like for Yellow Fever and similar pathogens (minus the test). New, in that carriers may start to insist on the same due to public demand - wouldn’t it be nice on a long flight to know that everyone on board had been vaccinated?
For Covid to reduce to background annoyance level, we need herd immunity, through exposure (illness/death) and/or vaccines. Which would most people prefer and which will get the World back on its feet in the shortest time frame?
For Covid to reduce to background annoyance level, we need herd immunity, through exposure (illness/death) and/or vaccines. Which would most people prefer and which will get the World back on its feet in the shortest time frame?
Re the argument that to fly internationally you are vaccinated for other diseases, true but this one is rushed in for profit.
The crews are also the early guinea pigs. Nice gamble with your medicals.
The crews are also the early guinea pigs. Nice gamble with your medicals.
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I'm not sure QF would be legally allowed to do this as a condition of carriage, it sounds like discrimination. A government could impose a requirement on health grounds but that is a totally different thing.
Regardless, this is an aviation forum so most of you should understand the concept of not buying the "A Model" of anything.
I do not know anyone that is fundamentally opposed to vaccinations but I also don't know anyone that will be rushing to get this particular vaccination. It is also worth noting that there are several competing vaccines and some will work better than others and some will possibly do more harm than others.
Regardless, this is an aviation forum so most of you should understand the concept of not buying the "A Model" of anything.
I do not know anyone that is fundamentally opposed to vaccinations but I also don't know anyone that will be rushing to get this particular vaccination. It is also worth noting that there are several competing vaccines and some will work better than others and some will possibly do more harm than others.
Climb150
You can search VAERS for deaths. It's 35 reported deaths in 2020 and 1699 serious reported cases in 2020.
You can search VAERS for deaths. It's 35 reported deaths in 2020 and 1699 serious reported cases in 2020.
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Someone mentioned that a one in a million risk of serious side effects should be enough of a deterrent against a vaccine. Let's suppose that you decide to take the natural course of things instead and get infected (quite often unknowingly). What's your chance of developing serious complications or dying? Even if actual COVID-19 case numbers globally have been underestimated by a factor or 10, it will perhaps still be greater than one in a million. So, no completely risk-free, gamble-free solution here.
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No vaccine, stay home.
It’s a free world, but you don’t have the right to transmit this disease to those who can’t take the vaccine for medical reasons.
That goes for workers who deal with other humans as well. That is us, and our cabin staff.
Your unvaccinated kids can stay home from school.
It will that much longer to get rid of Covid when people refuse the vaccine, but those who do can stay at home. With no support from the governments.
It’s a free world, but you don’t have the right to transmit this disease to those who can’t take the vaccine for medical reasons.
That goes for workers who deal with other humans as well. That is us, and our cabin staff.
Your unvaccinated kids can stay home from school.
It will that much longer to get rid of Covid when people refuse the vaccine, but those who do can stay at home. With no support from the governments.
The speed at which they’ve been developed is more a reflection of the concentration of effort than not respecting the need for safety.
I know plenty of anti-vaxers (north Coast NSW). Many are just scientifically illiterate and the ‘anti-vax’ message appeals because they just know they’re special, but there’s a hard core of activists who wilfully stoke the fear, distort the truth and flat out lie.
This vaccine and the controversy around it is a gift to these dangerous idiots.
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Get over it people.
This really just back to the future.
I’ve still got my little yellow book from the 60s showing that I had been vaccinated against Smallpox, Yellow Fever etc.
It was a requirement across the world.
Should never have been dropped in the first place.
My father worked for the WHO and saw the last case of Smallpox.Vaccines work.
Anti-Vaxers can knock themselves out. This is going to be the knew normal.
This really just back to the future.
I’ve still got my little yellow book from the 60s showing that I had been vaccinated against Smallpox, Yellow Fever etc.
It was a requirement across the world.
Should never have been dropped in the first place.
My father worked for the WHO and saw the last case of Smallpox.Vaccines work.
Anti-Vaxers can knock themselves out. This is going to be the knew normal.
dartman2
Governments have passed laws discriminating against the unvaccinated, No Jab No Play. It probably wouldn’t be a stretch to see the legislation expanded to allow airlines to deny carriage to unvaccinated passengers.
Governments have passed laws discriminating against the unvaccinated, No Jab No Play. It probably wouldn’t be a stretch to see the legislation expanded to allow airlines to deny carriage to unvaccinated passengers.
My understanding is that the Covid vaccines currently available measure the effectiveness by whether people who have received the vaccine exhibit symptoms of Covid at a later date - whether coughing/loss of smell or some other measure. I have yet to see anything which shows that a person who has had a vaccine is not infectious (or minimally infectious) - and the drug firms all seem to say "we have no data" when asked how a vaccine affects infectiousness
Thus, if every passenger on an aeroplane has had the vaccine, we can claim only that (almost) nobody will show symptoms of Covid - i.e. no coughing fits. I don't see how we can claim that passengers are not infectious. We therefore seem to be sweeping the problem under the carpet because nobody *appears* ill instead of knowing if pax are infectious.
The purpose of "PCR test on arrival" or quarantine is to find out who is infectious and ensure arriving pax will not spread the disease to residents of the country of arrival. I don't see how this "no vaccine, no fly" rule would help either passengers or citizens of the arrival country since it would not be possible to make any claim that the arriving passengers are not infectious. The "no vaccine, no fly" rule seems to be about building confidence in passengers to buy tickets to fly (and boosting airline revenues) because nobody on the aircraft will appear ill and thus passengers perceive themselves to be safe. A person who picks up Covid would find it extremely difficult to prove they were infected by another passenger on a specific flight as opposed to somewhere else
If there is evidence that the vaccine significantly reduces the level of infectiousness, then there is a much stronger argument for requiring all pax to be vaccinated. However, I haven't see that evidence. Has anybody else ?
Thus, if every passenger on an aeroplane has had the vaccine, we can claim only that (almost) nobody will show symptoms of Covid - i.e. no coughing fits. I don't see how we can claim that passengers are not infectious. We therefore seem to be sweeping the problem under the carpet because nobody *appears* ill instead of knowing if pax are infectious.
The purpose of "PCR test on arrival" or quarantine is to find out who is infectious and ensure arriving pax will not spread the disease to residents of the country of arrival. I don't see how this "no vaccine, no fly" rule would help either passengers or citizens of the arrival country since it would not be possible to make any claim that the arriving passengers are not infectious. The "no vaccine, no fly" rule seems to be about building confidence in passengers to buy tickets to fly (and boosting airline revenues) because nobody on the aircraft will appear ill and thus passengers perceive themselves to be safe. A person who picks up Covid would find it extremely difficult to prove they were infected by another passenger on a specific flight as opposed to somewhere else
If there is evidence that the vaccine significantly reduces the level of infectiousness, then there is a much stronger argument for requiring all pax to be vaccinated. However, I haven't see that evidence. Has anybody else ?
Last edited by davidjohnson6; 23rd Nov 2020 at 23:31.
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JustinHeywood
I'm not sure that I understand your point. Only true nut jobs are anti vaccination but lots of people will approach any of the potential vaccinations for Wuflu with caution.
Another thing worth noting, there are several potential vaccines and they work differently. How would one (layman) decide which one to have? The cheapest? The one the media or Government suggest?
Many people will sit on their hands for a while on this.
I'm not sure that I understand your point. Only true nut jobs are anti vaccination but lots of people will approach any of the potential vaccinations for Wuflu with caution.
Another thing worth noting, there are several potential vaccines and they work differently. How would one (layman) decide which one to have? The cheapest? The one the media or Government suggest?
Many people will sit on their hands for a while on this.
No objection to having the vaccine if it allows me to resume my weekly international commute.
Not so sure about the veracity of a “Health passport” issued in some jurisdictions though.
Just another fake thing you’ll be able to buy in Shenzhen and Sham Shui Po as soon as they have a real one to copy I guess.
Not so sure about the veracity of a “Health passport” issued in some jurisdictions though.
Just another fake thing you’ll be able to buy in Shenzhen and Sham Shui Po as soon as they have a real one to copy I guess.