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Klasjet 737 trouble flying in IMC

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Klasjet 737 trouble flying in IMC

Old 7th Sep 2020, 01:45
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Klasjet 737 trouble flying in IMC

I'm not a 737 pilot, so I'm sure I'll be corrected if my understanding of what's written here is wrong, but did this crew struggle to control the aircraft in IMC because the AP was inop?

Incident: Klasjet B735 at Madrid on Apr 5th 2019, navigation malfunction

https://www.mitma.es/recursos_mfom/c..._report_nm.pdf
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Old 7th Sep 2020, 03:53
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I read it the same way
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Old 7th Sep 2020, 04:18
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Grossly speaking, and given the rather limited details in the reports, yes.

The aircraft took off with one autopilot (Captain's side) inoperative (legal per MEL), and lost the 2nd A/P (FO side) in the climb. So they had to fly stick and rudder and throttle by hand.

What is not clear to me is what else the failure may have entailed. There is a suggestion in the tests made later that they may have also lost one or both EADIs ("glass" artificial-horizon displays, including a speed tape and glide-slope indicators - but not a full PFD). Leaving them with the backup "clockwork" instruments and a more difficult scan. And also (?) had an air data failure (speeds, pressures and temps for the A/P).

Speed Tape EADI

Looks to me like it took them a few minutes to get their heads back into "just fly it like a C172" mode. At which point they made a successful approach and landing.
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Old 7th Sep 2020, 05:05
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It seems as though a previous flight, the plane had a display problem. Unless I missed it, that was not mentioned for the incident flight.

The opening paragraph of the analysis would suggest that they had a fully functional aircraft, with the exception of the CA's speed bug.
When analyzing this event, the first thing to note is the fact that having both autopilots become inoperative did not prevent proceeding with the flight in instrument conditions, since the instruments required to carry out a flight of these characteristics were available tothe crew at all times; namely, they had the artificial horizon, altimeter, variometer, anemometer, compass, turn and bank indicator and the engine instruments (intake pressure and engine pressure ratio).
The phrase "proceeding with the flight" makes it sound as though they weren't on standby instruments, but that could just be a translation issue.
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Old 7th Sep 2020, 12:12
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Would it be unreasonable to expect at least the Captain to be capable of operating using the STANDBY INSTRUMENTS and flying an ILS approach?

This would of course require appropriate training and practice in the simulator, with recurrent training every six months?

Merely ticking the boxes to comply with the legislation probably needs a rethink.
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Old 7th Sep 2020, 17:39
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Quote form the AV herald report linked above:

In the case of the captain, he was a type rating instructor (TRI(A)), meaning he was not only very familiar with the airplane, its systems and its operation, but he had to be able to explain these concepts, that is, to convey them during training to other crewmembers in an operational setting, and to other pilots in general in a training setting.

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Old 7th Sep 2020, 18:51
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maybe I'm missing something but

It's seems like it's conditional on why the AP was inoperative. If it was an instrument input error I suspect the struggle would continue with the AP turned off
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Old 8th Sep 2020, 08:28
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STANDBY instruments? I'm old enough to remember when those were the ONLY instruments. Yes, we aged aviators regularly flew the ILS to Cat 1 minima using those. Just needs practice, but economics doesn't allow the simulator time these days.
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Old 9th Sep 2020, 14:18
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The crew had problem with English as well. Emergency declared but didn't give the reason. Inquiry report is as vague as the crew leaves none wiser. Inability to handle with basic instruments how does it become decision making problem?
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Old 9th Sep 2020, 16:09
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If you don't use it, you loose it.....

Didn't something similar happen to the ba 320 when the cowlings flew off?
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Old 9th Sep 2020, 16:20
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Wasn't that as a result of the odd BA policy of prohibiting manual thrust use on the Airbus fleet. Makes you wonder what the Fleet Management of some of these airlines think they are achieving?

Last edited by Meikleour; 9th Sep 2020 at 17:51. Reason: spelling
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Old 9th Sep 2020, 16:36
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This airline is an old boys club. A chip of the ol' Bloc. There's many in the region just like it. Mutual back scratching keeps the operation going. Albeit it, at a minimum standard.
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Old 9th Sep 2020, 17:36
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Meikleour

Increased safety margins. So I’m told
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Old 9th Sep 2020, 17:52
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Check Airman : So how well did that work out!!!
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Old 10th Sep 2020, 04:45
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A320 is much easier to handle in this situation. Whatever attitude or pitch is set the FBW will look after pilot just needs to set thrust for the speed.
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Old 10th Sep 2020, 05:52
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Easier to handle, perhaps. But in the hands of "managers" (instead of pilots), it'll still bite. Wasn't there an A319 in London that had issues flying after an engine failure?
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Old 10th Sep 2020, 06:01
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Originally Posted by Meikleour View Post
Check Airman : So how well did that work out!!!
We'll only find out if there's a revision to their automation policy.

Maybe I'm unsafe- but I have a hell of a lot of fun being unsafe.

click click

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Old 10th Sep 2020, 09:33
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I don't know which A319 you are talking about but if you can't do it in Airbus then you surely won't do it in 737.
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Old 10th Sep 2020, 10:13
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Interesting video, which I presume was created
before TCAS was mandated?
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Old 10th Sep 2020, 11:22
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its an ancient video oft repeated. Everything it says is not necessarily done today that way.
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