Air India Runway Excursion
de minimus non curat lex
How about a combination of very successful military pilot, together with ‘Cultural’ as described in this thread.
SKYGODS & ‘Ace of the base’ syndromes are part of the ‘Swiss Cheese’ ingredients ~ the holes.
C310driver..#229..just what is he on?
SKYGODS & ‘Ace of the base’ syndromes are part of the ‘Swiss Cheese’ ingredients ~ the holes.
C310driver..#229..just what is he on?
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Rw28 approach is between the hills and it appears that in rainy conditions has heavier showers. Pilots operating there regularly seem to have developed a work around to land on RW10 which will be in tailwind. It's a critical RW with a drop at the end and with some apprehensions about RW lighting. Whether the company has approved this or done it's math on Landing distance in tailwind with a little degraded friction about the margins is not known. If a pilot briefs for RW28 shouldn't be switching to RW10 in rain with TW without briefing which includes LD. If company OM had forbidden RW10 TW landing in rain this accident wouldn't have happened.
Last edited by vilas; 14th Aug 2020 at 08:34.
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There is a reason why many Pilots get to the end of a 40 year career without scratching the paint.
These Pilots are the backbone of every legacy carrier with sound safety records.
They are not management Pilots.
They are not ex-military egotists.
They are those that have long , deep experience , understand their operational environment and have an intimate knowledge of the operation and capabilities of their aircraft.
They are the ones that F/Os are happy to see at sign-on and not the ones who make their heads drop.
They have a good working knowledge of Company policy , but have a healthy disregard for Fuel Policy.
And they especially don’t listen to dissertations from policy managers and accountants.
They are comfortable in their aircraft.
Once the doors are closed the stress goes off , not up.
A diversion is a straight forward operational decision.
The Company’s reaction is irrelevant. If it is, start looking elsewhere.
The reason these sort of incidents keep happening with monotonous regularity is because more and more operators have less and less regard for these Pilots that make up the core of any successful airline.
No amount of investigation or analysis of events after the fact will change this reality.
These Pilots are the backbone of every legacy carrier with sound safety records.
They are not management Pilots.
They are not ex-military egotists.
They are those that have long , deep experience , understand their operational environment and have an intimate knowledge of the operation and capabilities of their aircraft.
They are the ones that F/Os are happy to see at sign-on and not the ones who make their heads drop.
They have a good working knowledge of Company policy , but have a healthy disregard for Fuel Policy.
And they especially don’t listen to dissertations from policy managers and accountants.
They are comfortable in their aircraft.
Once the doors are closed the stress goes off , not up.
A diversion is a straight forward operational decision.
The Company’s reaction is irrelevant. If it is, start looking elsewhere.
The reason these sort of incidents keep happening with monotonous regularity is because more and more operators have less and less regard for these Pilots that make up the core of any successful airline.
No amount of investigation or analysis of events after the fact will change this reality.
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It’s quite obvious, from the testimonies of pilots here who have flown in that region, that the sky gods are thriving. So I have no doubt in my mind, that its going to play a major part in this accident. Let’s see what the CVR reveals.
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https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...R9VKfeYyTCVqr5
Can B737 800 guys respond to this please?
Can B737 800 guys respond to this please?
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Here's the text from the article linked above.
ACN: 1531071
From: NASA Aviation Safety Reporting System
Re: B737NG Throttle Sensitivity
Additionally, an inadvertent and virtually imperceptible nudge of the throttles out of idle upon landing is now an aircraft condition not detected by either the PF or Pilot Monitoring (PM) until either the speed brake lever moves to the DOWN position, or the reverse thrust levers will not move. The time that passes to recognize this unforeseen aircraft condition can cause several hundred or even a thousand or more feet of runway to be lost as the PF and PM detect the unanticipated aircraft configuration and initiate the corrected response to move the throttles back to idle, redeploy the speed brake lever back to the UP position, and re-acquire the reverse thrust levers and pull them to deploy the reverse thrust system. Several hundred, or even a thousand or more feet of runway landing distance can be critical at many of the airports and in many of the environmental conditions we fly into.
The force needed to inadvertently move the throttles out of idle upon touchdown is so small that it is easily undetectable by the PF. As the PF slides or moves the hand downward on the throttles toward the reverse thrust levers to grab and pull them, an inadvertent and very small force can be applied to the reverse thrust levers themselves or some other part of the throttle quadrant, moving it out of idle. The distance or throw needed to move the throttles out of idle causing this undesirable aircraft condition is very small. I would estimate .5 - 1 inch. This small distance, and the small force needed to cause the movement, is hard to detect contributing to the difficulty of immediately recognizing the aircraft's undesirable state.
In summary, the reason this event occurred on this flight and on other flights (observed by me happening to other crewmembers while I sat in the FO seat and in the jumpseat), is due to an aircraft deficiency. This deficiency can be compensated for by an aware PF, but can also be easily fixed by a modification to the aircraft's go-around logic.
Recommendations: Change the go-around logic in the B737 that moves the speed brake lever to the DOWN position and locks out reverse thrust lever movement, from throttle position "both thrust levers are retarded to IDLE", to 'both thrust levers are more than 33 degrees.' This would eliminate go-around logic activation for small, inadvertent movement of the throttles out of idle, as a greater throw of the throttles would be required for go-around logic to be employed. Add a note or caution in the LANDING section of the B737 Operating Manual to advise pilots of this possibility, and offer prevention techniques to minimize its occurrence. Adopting these recommendations may prevent a runway overshoot in the future.
The reporter stated that if the go-around logic was changed to, instead of just throttle movement, to throttle movement of more than 33 degrees to determine a go-around was intended, this would mitigate this inadvertent throttle movement issue. The reporter also stated that it would be helpful if the Flight Manual had information of the potential inadvertent throttle movement and a procedure to deal with it.
This is an issue on most other Boeings as well where the reversers are locked out when the thrust levers are not at idle to prevent inadvertent deployment.
5 May 2018 - NASA ASRS report issued into 737NG Throttle Sensitivity
5/9/2018 FOR YOUR INFORMATION 2018-77/3-9ACN: 1531071
From: NASA Aviation Safety Reporting System
Re: B737NG Throttle Sensitivity
NASA Aviation Safety Reporting System
We recently received an ASRS report describing a safety concern that may involve your area of operational responsibility. We do not have sufficient details to assess either the factual accuracy or possible gravity of the report. It is our policy to relay the reported information to the appropriate authority for evaluation and any necessary follow-up. We feel you should be aware of the enclosed deidentified report.Synopsis
B737-800 First Officer reported it is very easy to inadvertently nudge the throttles forward, out of idle, during landing causing the spoilers and reversers not to operate normally.Narrative 1
Upon touchdown in the B737NG-800, it has been observed on more than one occasion that it is very easy to inadvertently nudge the throttles forward, out of idle, as the Pilot Flying (PF) reaches down to grab the reverse thrust levers. This can, and will cause the speed brake lever to move to the DOWN position, stowing the speed brakes, and locking out the reverse thrust levers from movement given the current aircraft logic sensing that the PF may intend to goaround. However, if the throttle movement out of idle was inadvertent and no go-around is intended, this situation has the combined negative effect of taking weight off the landing gear, reducing drag, and preventing the reverse thrust system from operating, resulting in less effective aircraft braking and increased landing distance.Additionally, an inadvertent and virtually imperceptible nudge of the throttles out of idle upon landing is now an aircraft condition not detected by either the PF or Pilot Monitoring (PM) until either the speed brake lever moves to the DOWN position, or the reverse thrust levers will not move. The time that passes to recognize this unforeseen aircraft condition can cause several hundred or even a thousand or more feet of runway to be lost as the PF and PM detect the unanticipated aircraft configuration and initiate the corrected response to move the throttles back to idle, redeploy the speed brake lever back to the UP position, and re-acquire the reverse thrust levers and pull them to deploy the reverse thrust system. Several hundred, or even a thousand or more feet of runway landing distance can be critical at many of the airports and in many of the environmental conditions we fly into.
The force needed to inadvertently move the throttles out of idle upon touchdown is so small that it is easily undetectable by the PF. As the PF slides or moves the hand downward on the throttles toward the reverse thrust levers to grab and pull them, an inadvertent and very small force can be applied to the reverse thrust levers themselves or some other part of the throttle quadrant, moving it out of idle. The distance or throw needed to move the throttles out of idle causing this undesirable aircraft condition is very small. I would estimate .5 - 1 inch. This small distance, and the small force needed to cause the movement, is hard to detect contributing to the difficulty of immediately recognizing the aircraft's undesirable state.
In summary, the reason this event occurred on this flight and on other flights (observed by me happening to other crewmembers while I sat in the FO seat and in the jumpseat), is due to an aircraft deficiency. This deficiency can be compensated for by an aware PF, but can also be easily fixed by a modification to the aircraft's go-around logic.
Recommendations: Change the go-around logic in the B737 that moves the speed brake lever to the DOWN position and locks out reverse thrust lever movement, from throttle position "both thrust levers are retarded to IDLE", to 'both thrust levers are more than 33 degrees.' This would eliminate go-around logic activation for small, inadvertent movement of the throttles out of idle, as a greater throw of the throttles would be required for go-around logic to be employed. Add a note or caution in the LANDING section of the B737 Operating Manual to advise pilots of this possibility, and offer prevention techniques to minimize its occurrence. Adopting these recommendations may prevent a runway overshoot in the future.
Callback 1
The reporter stated that this happened to him and has seen it several times, the inadvertent throttle movement during landing when reaching for the reverser handle. The reporter stated that during final approach, and just touching down, the go-around logic is that if the throttles are moved out of idle detent. Aircraft thinks the pilot intends to go-around and therefore spoilers will retract, the reversers will be locked out, the air/ground switch is still in air mode, (due to the spoilers retracting), and so the aircraft thinks it's still flying. The reporter stated that it becomes very chaotic until you realize what is actually happening. The reporter also stated that you start running out of runway very quickly.The reporter stated that if the go-around logic was changed to, instead of just throttle movement, to throttle movement of more than 33 degrees to determine a go-around was intended, this would mitigate this inadvertent throttle movement issue. The reporter also stated that it would be helpful if the Flight Manual had information of the potential inadvertent throttle movement and a procedure to deal with it.
Synopsis
B737-800 First Officer reported it is very easy to inadvertently nudge the throttles forward, out of idle, during landing causing the spoilers and reversers not to operate normally.Join Date: Jan 2006
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George Glass
You forgot to add -
they're not civilian egotists'and they understand the fuel policy and don't run around making up outlandish scenarios'.
You forgot to add -
they're not civilian egotists'and they understand the fuel policy and don't run around making up outlandish scenarios'.
Last edited by misd-agin; 14th Aug 2020 at 17:15. Reason: added a blank line to format
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Some more reading material for you. Read post #249, it's not my opinion.
It might be worth bearing in mind that the section in that report headed "Recommendations" (whether relevant or not to the AI Express event) is a personal view and is not endorsed by either NASA, the FAA or the NTSB.
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I have to say its the first I've seen of someone reporting this. Having worked for 3 different Boeing operators, I've not heard anyone regarding this as an issue (it makes sense to have the thrust levers at idle prior to activation of reverse). My opinion is this could be related to technique (again, the natural process of deploying reverse should apply an aft force on the levers).
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DaveReidUK
If you're talking about B737 my point is it is a compromised aircraft. It always had some problem or the other and needed work arounds. Like the STS, MCAS, higher speeds. That makes it not an easy aircraft to fly.
If you're talking about B737 my point is it is a compromised aircraft. It always had some problem or the other and needed work arounds. Like the STS, MCAS, higher speeds. That makes it not an easy aircraft to fly.
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It's been a long time but it seems like the legacy Airbus aircraft like the A306 and A310 also will not allow the reversers to deploy if the throttles are out of idle. Isn't this the case with most transport aircraft with moving throttles and reversers?
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Rubbish again. The B737 MAX variants had a design oversight that allowed faulty component's to put the aircraft into a compromised situation. There is in fact a QRH procedure for all 737 variants that could possibly have prevented both accidents. But that is it. The aircraft is in no way compromised as an entity. The higher speeds issue you spout off about are laughable.
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Last edited by Airbubba; 15th Aug 2020 at 03:59.
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Airbubba,
I think vilas is off on some harebrained conspiracy theory. Nothing in the Air India Express accident (currently available as fact) backs up their theory but that doesn't stop the constant whining.
I think vilas is off on some harebrained conspiracy theory. Nothing in the Air India Express accident (currently available as fact) backs up their theory but that doesn't stop the constant whining.
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Airbus didn't have the technology to have interconnected sidesticks in 1980s when A320 was developed, but Gulfstream has proven the technology is here today. So why does a training captain on the state-of-the-art A350 have to shift their view almost 90 degrees left/right and slightly down to see what inputs the student is making with their sidestick? Surely it has nothing to do with compromise and type rating/CCQ fleet commonality?
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Once the thrust levers are in idle, you kind of slide your hand down and pull up the reverser levers.
If you remove your hand without having aft pressure and try to just pull up reverser levers, there is a small possibility of not being able to deploy if thrust lever moves ahead. That can be a disadvantage as reverse thrust is most effective at higher speeds but again we don’t know if that has any relevance (yet) in this accident.
If you remove your hand without having aft pressure and try to just pull up reverser levers, there is a small possibility of not being able to deploy if thrust lever moves ahead. That can be a disadvantage as reverse thrust is most effective at higher speeds but again we don’t know if that has any relevance (yet) in this accident.
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Reported Covid-19 outbreak among the officials responding to the scene.
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/kera...avirus-2279468
Kerala Chief Minister In Self-Isolation After 22 Officials Test Positive Kerala plane crash: The Air India Express plane came with 184 passengers from Dubai under the centre's Vande Bharat Mission that expatriates Indians stranded abroad amid the COVID-19 pandemic
Reported by Sneha Mary Koshy, Edited by Debanish Achom (with inputs from PTI)Updated: August 14, 2020 5:16 pm IST
Thiruvananthapuram: Twenty-two officials who responded to the plane crash in Kerala last week have tested positive for coronavirus, the Malappuram medical officer told NDTV. The Air India Express plane came with 184 passengers from Dubai under the centre's Vande Bharat Mission that expatriates Indians stranded abroad amid the COVID-19 pandemic.
"They were quarantined after the rescue operations at the plane crash site ended. Most of them were on location," the district medical officer said. Some 600 people including locals were asked to go into quarantine the very next day by health officials.
The district medical officer's team is undertaking risk assessment and more details are awaited.
Kerala Governor Arif Mohammed Khan, Chief Minister Pinarayi Vijayan, senior ministers including state Health Minister KK Shailaja and senior bureaucrats had visited the crash site on August 8. Civil Aviation Minister Hardeep Singh Puri and junior foreign minister V Muraleedharan had also visited the crash site and held meetings.
"At the airport, I hardly had any direct contact with the officials concerned. However, I have been in self-isolation since I returned to Delhi, primarily because I also visited Munnar, the area affected by landslide and there social distancing was not possible," Mr Muraleedharan told NDTV.
The Chief Minister and eight others have gone into self-quarantine. The others include EP Jayarajan, KK Shailaja, VS Sunilkumar, Ramachandran Kadannappalli, AK Saseendran, TP Ramakrishnan, Vishwas Mehta and Loknath Behra. The Local Self Government Minister AC Moideen and Minorities Welfare Minister KT Jaleel were already present in the area.
All on board the crashed aircraft were evacuated after a nearly three-hour operation. Eighteen people including both the pilots died in the crash and more than 150 were injured. All survivors were admitted to various hospitals and were also tested for COVID-19.
Reported by Sneha Mary Koshy, Edited by Debanish Achom (with inputs from PTI)Updated: August 14, 2020 5:16 pm IST
Thiruvananthapuram: Twenty-two officials who responded to the plane crash in Kerala last week have tested positive for coronavirus, the Malappuram medical officer told NDTV. The Air India Express plane came with 184 passengers from Dubai under the centre's Vande Bharat Mission that expatriates Indians stranded abroad amid the COVID-19 pandemic.
"They were quarantined after the rescue operations at the plane crash site ended. Most of them were on location," the district medical officer said. Some 600 people including locals were asked to go into quarantine the very next day by health officials.
The district medical officer's team is undertaking risk assessment and more details are awaited.
Kerala Governor Arif Mohammed Khan, Chief Minister Pinarayi Vijayan, senior ministers including state Health Minister KK Shailaja and senior bureaucrats had visited the crash site on August 8. Civil Aviation Minister Hardeep Singh Puri and junior foreign minister V Muraleedharan had also visited the crash site and held meetings.
"At the airport, I hardly had any direct contact with the officials concerned. However, I have been in self-isolation since I returned to Delhi, primarily because I also visited Munnar, the area affected by landslide and there social distancing was not possible," Mr Muraleedharan told NDTV.
The Chief Minister and eight others have gone into self-quarantine. The others include EP Jayarajan, KK Shailaja, VS Sunilkumar, Ramachandran Kadannappalli, AK Saseendran, TP Ramakrishnan, Vishwas Mehta and Loknath Behra. The Local Self Government Minister AC Moideen and Minorities Welfare Minister KT Jaleel were already present in the area.
All on board the crashed aircraft were evacuated after a nearly three-hour operation. Eighteen people including both the pilots died in the crash and more than 150 were injured. All survivors were admitted to various hospitals and were also tested for COVID-19.
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/kera...avirus-2279468