Pilot lives....yes they matter
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Well, we can all theorise, but I know what I'm telling my children (and not for the first time): DO NOT BECOME A CAREER PILOT. You're a one trick pony with nothing else to do in an amazingly volatile industry that can be grounded in seconds. Don't bother messing with your life like that. It's too late for me, but not for them. I greatly sympathise with those who've just spent the money to qualify. I have a tertiary qualification in an engineering field; there is zero chance a company would take me over a fresh graduate, as I have the briefest experience in the field, and that was fifteen years ago. All my family and friends with in other industries are back at work, in most cases they never stopped as alternate plans could be made (work from home etc). This career can become a dead end in moments - it always has been the case ie. loss of medical, but now it's plain for all to see just how damaging any world event is. I sincerely hope that school leavers think VERY long and hard about a career in aviation. As I said, the young people whom I most care about in this world get told in no uncertain terms what I think.
Paxing All Over The World
Indeed 70 Mustang. My nephew mentioned in previous post, had just got himself in a pilot training company, where his experience could be paid one again and less than two months later? Lockdown. He has no idea if that job will ever return. Not least as he was last in the door.
In the past couple of days, I've read articles about other industries that have had changed forced upon them, or were already changing.
Movie making has already seen 'green screen' replace a lot of location shooting (ie travel). Now they are starting to use a combination of gaming video technology in action movies and beyond. They use very large 'LED walls' rather than green screen, so they can project the background at the time of filming. One example was for a film I have not seen (Rocketman) in the scene where the actor playing Elton John was meant to be in Shea Satdium NYC, it was filmed in the UK studio with the whole stadium and thousands of 'extras' on LED walls. So all the extras were not employed and no one had to fly to New York.
This year, Fashion Shows have gone online. All those designers, magazine people, models and staff were not flying the world. They might not be a large group but they are indicative of the changes.
In the UK, shopping malls were already in big financial trouble before Covid19. People buying online, avoiding old style High Streets? All was happening before. One of our largest shopping mall owners (Intu) has now gone bust. This past week, two major high street retailers (John Lewis and Boots) have announced store closures.
The Independent: "John Lewis says that between 60 per cent and 70 per cent of its sales will be made online this year. Last year, it was 40 per cent "
That is staff who will not be travelling the world to buy goods and staff not serving customers and so they will not be going on overseas holidays, possibly for some time.
As I said before, many of these trends were in process and Covid19 has simply pushed them to the front.
In the past couple of days, I've read articles about other industries that have had changed forced upon them, or were already changing.
Movie making has already seen 'green screen' replace a lot of location shooting (ie travel). Now they are starting to use a combination of gaming video technology in action movies and beyond. They use very large 'LED walls' rather than green screen, so they can project the background at the time of filming. One example was for a film I have not seen (Rocketman) in the scene where the actor playing Elton John was meant to be in Shea Satdium NYC, it was filmed in the UK studio with the whole stadium and thousands of 'extras' on LED walls. So all the extras were not employed and no one had to fly to New York.
This year, Fashion Shows have gone online. All those designers, magazine people, models and staff were not flying the world. They might not be a large group but they are indicative of the changes.
In the UK, shopping malls were already in big financial trouble before Covid19. People buying online, avoiding old style High Streets? All was happening before. One of our largest shopping mall owners (Intu) has now gone bust. This past week, two major high street retailers (John Lewis and Boots) have announced store closures.
The Independent: "John Lewis says that between 60 per cent and 70 per cent of its sales will be made online this year. Last year, it was 40 per cent "
That is staff who will not be travelling the world to buy goods and staff not serving customers and so they will not be going on overseas holidays, possibly for some time.
As I said before, many of these trends were in process and Covid19 has simply pushed them to the front.
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Pax, sorrry your analysis is so overdone. The truth of what will occur lies somewhere in the middle. Your outlook ignores the fundamental of what being human is all about, at our core we are social animals. Fashion will not revert online, business travel will be less for awhile and what makes sense. Costs play a huge part but once the fear subsides and treatment and/or vaccine happen people will do what people do, congregate, explore, travel. Once people can park zoom for awhile they absolutely will. Not one person I know is willing to assume this bizarre new normal. Your comments are indicative of someone who wished they were a pilot but didn’t do it or cut it.
Only half a speed-brake
Jeez, you really think pilots are special. Quite sad.
Hint: Even the ones with 100k loans were well off enough the bank gave them one.
Hint: Even the ones with 100k loans were well off enough the bank gave them one.
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Some of you guys might not have realised this is a pilot's forum. Do only pilots experience a tough time in that situation ? No, but if I want to discuss issues within other professions then it's worth looking for other websites maybe ?
Well there's certainly an odd mindset around FD, and something/somebody has encouraged it. It's not that long ago we had the poster who seemed to think having a Class One meant you were some sort of superman/woman and now we have this thread.
Yes the industry is being utterly brutal at the moment to everybody who is involved it in, yes there's lots of scope for distraction on the Flight Deck, but the idea that somehow pilots have to be put in a cushioned box and specially protected from reality.....
Oh and in the context of the parallel discussion about youngsters going into the industry... Having "made the cut"
routinely with over 45 years of flying and having seen the way it was headed before Covid/coronovirus I'm another one who told their now grown up kids not to touch the industry with a barge pole...
Yes the industry is being utterly brutal at the moment to everybody who is involved it in, yes there's lots of scope for distraction on the Flight Deck, but the idea that somehow pilots have to be put in a cushioned box and specially protected from reality.....
Oh and in the context of the parallel discussion about youngsters going into the industry... Having "made the cut"
routinely with over 45 years of flying and having seen the way it was headed before Covid/coronovirus I'm another one who told their now grown up kids not to touch the industry with a barge pole...
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I have also been telling my kids not to take up a career as a pilot, mainly due to how volatile a career it is and it's much easier said than done to have a viable backup plan. Unless you can keep your hand in with a second profession throughout your flying career it's going to be very difficult to fall back on a previous career, experience or education when it's 10+ years out of date (even more so in todays job market). For that reason, I hope permanent part time contracts become more easily available ro those who want them. They could give pilots a fighting chance to diversify on the side. A couple of colleagues managed to build a property empire on the side and now have a second income to give them some breathing space...great idea if you can afford the initial capital.
All that said, I still know of medics, lawyers and teachers who tell their kids never to take up their parents chosen professions for various other reasons.
All that said, I still know of medics, lawyers and teachers who tell their kids never to take up their parents chosen professions for various other reasons.
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I know someone who made it into a jet with a major airline at 36. The reason it took so long was they never made the grade 15 years ago and would have struggled with the 100k. They were never prime pilot material but eventually had enough equity in a flat to pursue being a pilot. Being a Pilot is really not that difficult and the level the bar has been set at in recent years means there is probably another 50k people in the UK alone that could take it up tomorrow if they have 100k backing. Being a pilot is no longer a career but more of an expensive lifestyle experience. Most would be financially better off working an office job that pays 35k.
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I am a retired aviation professional and (in my retirement) had been flying purely for leisure an average of 30-50 sectors per year. So far this year my total is zero. As much as I want to travel again I do not see myself boarding an aircraft for a good while yet. Only a proven efficient vaccine will give me peace of mind, and that is a long way off or may possibly never happen! It truly hurts me to see all who are involved in the industry suffering the economic consequences of this virus, but I just cannot take the risk. I'm sure that I speak for hundreds of thousands that think more or less along the same lines right now.
I have also been flying purely for pleasure an average of 40-50 sectors per year, and after four months without a flight, I have taken to it again.
I had my first two flights last week (by the way, both were full), and until the end of this summer season I have twenty more already booked. I just hope they won't be cancelled by the airlines.
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The biggest problem is one that at no time, the Pilot community has put pressure on governments to properly award our training , studying, responsibility and proficiency with an official recognition.
ATPL holders or those holding Captaincy should get a Masters degree, when graduating from Academy, you should have a Bachelors.
The training should be Nationalised once again, the multi-choice exams and questionbanks burned to crisp and make the basic training 3 years, including subjects like Aviation Economy , analytics, Psychology, maths, physics,...
Just like Maritime Academy, that DOES get you a master degree when graduating.
ATPL holders or those holding Captaincy should get a Masters degree, when graduating from Academy, you should have a Bachelors.
The training should be Nationalised once again, the multi-choice exams and questionbanks burned to crisp and make the basic training 3 years, including subjects like Aviation Economy , analytics, Psychology, maths, physics,...
Just like Maritime Academy, that DOES get you a master degree when graduating.
Empathy
What astounds me when I read some posts is the total lack of empathy towards a fellow human.
The posters (you all know who I mean) who either look at a person struggling and think “ha, it serves you right” or look at someone with a better deal than themselves and think “that’s not fair, what about me?” are truly the most awful of people.
I am a military pilot but there is not a single cell in my body that doesn’t feel the pain of all those people I know in the airline industry (whatever their field) who are facing such life changing uncertainty.
To sneer at the people who are feeling such pain is unforgivable but especially when those feelings are clearly borne out of simple envy.
If you think those thoughts why must you feel the need to verbalise them?
I’ve said this many times but all my colleagues and acquaintances have my utmost sympathy and I hope the whole mess is sorted soon.
As a regular user of your services I’ll do my bit as soon as I am able by buying tickets again.
The posters (you all know who I mean) who either look at a person struggling and think “ha, it serves you right” or look at someone with a better deal than themselves and think “that’s not fair, what about me?” are truly the most awful of people.
I am a military pilot but there is not a single cell in my body that doesn’t feel the pain of all those people I know in the airline industry (whatever their field) who are facing such life changing uncertainty.
To sneer at the people who are feeling such pain is unforgivable but especially when those feelings are clearly borne out of simple envy.
If you think those thoughts why must you feel the need to verbalise them?
I’ve said this many times but all my colleagues and acquaintances have my utmost sympathy and I hope the whole mess is sorted soon.
As a regular user of your services I’ll do my bit as soon as I am able by buying tickets again.
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The training should be Nationalised once again, the multi-choice exams and questionbanks burned to crisp and make the basic training 3 years, including subjects like Aviation Economy , analytics, Psychology, maths, physics,...
Just like Maritime Academy, that DOES get you a master degree when graduating.
Just like Maritime Academy, that DOES get you a master degree when graduating.
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The biggest problem is one that at no time, the Pilot community has put pressure on governments to properly award our training , studying, responsibility and proficiency with an official recognition.
ATPL holders or those holding Captaincy should get a Masters degree, when graduating from Academy, you should have a Bachelors.
The training should be Nationalised once again, the multi-choice exams and questionbanks burned to crisp and make the basic training 3 years, including subjects like Aviation Economy , analytics, Psychology, maths, physics,...
Just like Maritime Academy, that DOES get you a master degree when graduating.
ATPL holders or those holding Captaincy should get a Masters degree, when graduating from Academy, you should have a Bachelors.
The training should be Nationalised once again, the multi-choice exams and questionbanks burned to crisp and make the basic training 3 years, including subjects like Aviation Economy , analytics, Psychology, maths, physics,...
Just like Maritime Academy, that DOES get you a master degree when graduating.
What astounds me when I read some posts is the total lack of empathy towards a fellow human.
The posters (you all know who I mean) who either look at a person struggling and think “ha, it serves you right” or look at someone with a better deal than themselves and think “that’s not fair, what about me?” are truly the most awful of people.
The posters (you all know who I mean) who either look at a person struggling and think “ha, it serves you right” or look at someone with a better deal than themselves and think “that’s not fair, what about me?” are truly the most awful of people.
My guess is part of the problem is that for many this is a brutal introduction into what goes on in the commercial aviation sector in a downturn ( and I accept this is a outlier, but many of us have seen the knives come out during smaller downturns before, GW1, 9/11...). Fundamentally employees are completely expendable, and yes, that includes those who were enticed into the business by the promises made by the ATOs and others who sold the dream on the basis of a never ending pilot shortage.
Do only pilots experience a tough time in that situation ? No, but if I want to discuss issues within other professions then it's worth looking for other websites maybe ?
As a pilot I am undoubtedly biased, but I now have feet in many camps and as I look around it is hard to see another group, so indebted by training, facing such high levels of unemployment and with the possibility that they may never be employed in their profession again. I for one am not a great fan of the Chancellor who has spread taxpayers' money like manure rather than concentrate on those parts of the economy worst hit.
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Quite right but others can occupy the Flight Deck on some aircraft. . But no quibble with "pilot's lives matter" but in what we are currently facing in the industry... thousands of other aviation lives also matter.
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Let me just pop over to a thread clearly talking about the specifics of being cabin crew and start moaning about being a pilot right now. See how dumb that sounds? There is no monopoly on misery at the moment and hardship isn’t mutually exclusive. The point of the thread title was to allude to what the breaking point could be for pilots to finally say enough is enough. Offering to fly for free, chastising those for lack of a backup plan, laying off highly experienced commanders in favour of cheaper newbies and just being bluddy nasty on this thread clearly shows where the profession has gone. Enjoy your new lives with your virtual world and staycations for eternity. Good luck.
Paxing All Over The World
Bindair Dundat
I certainly agree about being social animals and I do hope that the outlook is somewhere in the middle. I expect, and plan for, the worst. This can lead to a pleasant surprise. Unfortunately, in my life of watching international affairs and politics (I am not in the financial or poltical worlds and never have been) the number of pleasant surprises have been few.
Yes, humans WILL want to socialise and travel again - but if the money is not there? When people have lost their jobs, as many flight and cabin crew are, as many airline office employees are, then the money is not around.
Time will tell. Do not forget that the new generations are not frightened of being on line. Also, they have got used to ordering online and sending back what they don't want.
I hope that those people you know do not get an unpleasant surprise. Over the millenia, human existance tends to change in 'landslides' and 'earthquakes' it is not that often, that change occurs slowly and gently. We have all got used to the easy progress since 1945. The airline world changed steadily and employment expanded beyond anyone's imagination. Steady expansion is not what history shows us.
As mentioned, the global economy was overheating before Covid19, there is a reason that gold has been increasing in value since long before the virus emerged.
As mentioned, with the airline world having to plan 5/10/15 years ahead - do not expect any fast changes.
As mentioned, the Max might get in the air in some parts of the world but it will never be the success that it was planned to be and this will limit jobs inside and outside of Boeing. Thus, costs may remain higher, unless a carrier can afford to buy/lease more efficient aircraft. So that is something of a Catch 22.
No, you are wrong. I have never wanted to be a pilot and have never applied for any such job. I have been a happy pax since I was nine. Just because I am interested in the airline world - does not mean that I want to be part of it.
Pax, sorrry your analysis is so overdone. The truth of what will occur lies somewhere in the middle. Your outlook ignores the fundamental of what being human is all about, at our core we are social animals.
Yes, humans WILL want to socialise and travel again - but if the money is not there? When people have lost their jobs, as many flight and cabin crew are, as many airline office employees are, then the money is not around.
Fashion will not revert online, business travel will be less for awhile and what makes sense.
Costs play a huge part but once the fear subsides and treatment and/or vaccine happen people will do what people do, congregate, explore, travel. Once people can park zoom for awhile they absolutely will. Not one person I know is willing to assume this bizarre new normal.
As mentioned, the global economy was overheating before Covid19, there is a reason that gold has been increasing in value since long before the virus emerged.
As mentioned, with the airline world having to plan 5/10/15 years ahead - do not expect any fast changes.
As mentioned, the Max might get in the air in some parts of the world but it will never be the success that it was planned to be and this will limit jobs inside and outside of Boeing. Thus, costs may remain higher, unless a carrier can afford to buy/lease more efficient aircraft. So that is something of a Catch 22.
Your comments are indicative of someone who wished they were a pilot but didn’t do it or cut it.
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Whatever scenario anyone of us imagines, there are three possible outcomes:
1. The reality will be better than we imagine
2. The reality will be worse than we imagine
3. The reality will be just as we imagine
I've read through a significant number of different scenarios. Anything ranging from things going back to normal by some time next year and traffic reaching and exceeding 2019 levels in no more than 2-3 years to things being so wildly screwed 3 years from now that no private airline will exist and the only flights out there will be operated by state-owned carriers to maintain essential connectivity and will cost an arm and a leg. My personal opinion, based on this? We shall wait and see. Whatever prophecy we make now, it may become completely invalid by next week.
1. The reality will be better than we imagine
2. The reality will be worse than we imagine
3. The reality will be just as we imagine
I've read through a significant number of different scenarios. Anything ranging from things going back to normal by some time next year and traffic reaching and exceeding 2019 levels in no more than 2-3 years to things being so wildly screwed 3 years from now that no private airline will exist and the only flights out there will be operated by state-owned carriers to maintain essential connectivity and will cost an arm and a leg. My personal opinion, based on this? We shall wait and see. Whatever prophecy we make now, it may become completely invalid by next week.