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Boeing 737 Max Recertification Testing - Finally.

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Boeing 737 Max Recertification Testing - Finally.

Old 11th Mar 2023, 00:45
  #961 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by artee
^^
I've always appreciated your posts. thoughtful, well reasoned, and able to explain legal things in a way that makes it easier for non-legal beagles to understand.
Please keep up the good work.
/\ What he said
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Old 11th Mar 2023, 01:16
  #962 (permalink)  
 
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Many thanks -
WR 6-3
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Old 11th Mar 2023, 08:39
  #963 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by WillowRun 6-3

The legal system - the processes within the system - in this country do not provide an omnibus (overall) forum for addressing all the issues in a given situation in one setting. I recognize that you're intensely indignant over what you perceive as getting-away-with-murder by the State of Ethiopia, or parts of it. But to the extent that your view is that this specific injustice must be pounded upon endlessly, to the exclusion of achieving some positive results in a given case in which that State is not directly present, I'll just agree to disagree.
Well, you just have to accept that the carrier brings the legal aspects of the country that it is from. If you want Western standards of law and state oversight, choose a Western carrier.

Now a significant number of the passengers were on journeys which could have been done wholly on such carriers, indeed, nonstop in many cases. France, UK - why not fly nonstop on your own carrier ? The single largest overseas group (in fact, double the number of Ethiopians on board) were Canadians, who have a range of such carriers connecting directly in Europe. What does Ethiopia have to do with a trip from Montreal to Nairobi ? One answer of course, it's cheaper. OK, on you go. Don't get upset if the carrier's national traditions are not your traditions.
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Old 18th Mar 2023, 17:15
  #964 (permalink)  
 
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Munro gives some insight on his time with McDonald Douglas. Has probably more to do with the 737-MAX mess than anyone dares to know.
if you have some time:




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Old 19th Mar 2023, 00:03
  #965 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks for sharing that video EDLB... Amazing how top management can really destroy a company.
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Old 19th Mar 2023, 02:11
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Originally Posted by Jet Jockey A4
Thanks for sharing that video EDLB... Amazing how top management can really destroy a company.
Are banks different ?
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Old 19th Mar 2023, 11:10
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Originally Posted by WideScreen
Are banks different ?
No... Unfortunately that is the dark side of predatory capitalism when the bottom line is to make sure that the investors in such companies get more than their fare share of the money, damned the rest.
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Old 19th Mar 2023, 11:20
  #968 (permalink)  
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@ EDLB, thanks for that video, sad to watch in fact but revealing of a "profit -above -everything" culture that could also bring down Boeing civil airctaft in ethe same manner unfortunately as it looks the same kind of management is at the top.
.
@ Jet Jockey A4 :
Amazing how top management can really destroy a company.
Oh yes, look at Twitter right now , Elon Musk is on his way to do the same , not for money, but for power..and in a very short time too..
​​​​​​​
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Old 19th Mar 2023, 16:21
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Oh yes, look at Twitter right now , Elon Musk is on his way to do the same , not for money, but for power..and in a very short time too..
Twitter aside what Musk has done with Tesla and SpaceX is nothing short of astounding. When he started both ventures the know all would have given him zero chance. No one had broken into the car industry in many decades. As for private launchers and contract hauling to space, you would have been sent to the rubber room.
I for one very confidentially predicted tesla would be bust in 2019 and GM or VW would buy the carcass.
As for Twitter - really who cares? It's an internet thing and they come inevitably go. It will be replaced.
SpaceX and Tesla represent amazing engineering and hard tangible goods.
I stand by me prediction the boring company will be a bust but I will give the guy credit where credit is due.
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Old 19th Mar 2023, 16:57
  #970 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by artee
^^
I've always appreciated your posts. thoughtful, well reasoned, and able to explain legal things in a way that makes it easier for non-legal beagles to understand.
Please keep up the good work.
WR,

I’ve been traveling a lot for the past month and haven’t kept up with this thread.

artee has expressed my opinion of your posts much better than I could. Keep up the good work.

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Old 19th Mar 2023, 21:31
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This SLF/attorney greatly appreciates the kind words of encouragement and approval - thank you very much.
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Old 20th Mar 2023, 03:07
  #972 (permalink)  
 
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Sigh……

Acknowledging the terror of the passengers who were pretty sure they were about to die due to a design failure that Boeing is totally responsible for would cost money. Instead we see another example of the Boeing executives failure of vision and the top down driven Boeing culture which incentivizes senior management who understand the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

Boeing Claims MAX Victims Didn’t Suffer Any Pain

By
Russ Niles
-
Published: March 18, 2023Updated: March 19, 2023
1
Boeing lawyers say the company shouldn’t have to pay for the pain suffered by victims of two 737 MAX crashes because they couldn’t possibly have felt any pain. The Wall Street Journal is reporting Boeing’s legal team says the law in Illinois, where this case is being heard, doesn’t allow their families to be paid for pain and suffering to be compensated because there essentially was none. Boeing consulted experts who determined there wasn’t enough time in the 700-MPH impact for the human brain to process pain signals.

Boeing has already admitted fault for the crash and an earlier one in Indonesia which together killed 346 occupants of the two brand-new aircraft. These filings are an attempt to have the court limit what evidence a jury could consider when awarding damages. The families want the jury to be able to consider the effect of the six minutes of climbs and dives that preceded the crash. The WSJ says the Boeing claims allowing that evidence would “prejudice and confuse” jurors, potentially leading them to award amounts “tantamount to punitive damages.”

“Jurors would inevitably sympathize with testimony about the passengers’ alleged fear of impending death and imagine themselves in the passengers’ shoes,” the WSJ quoted Boeing attorneys as writing in one filing. Eliminating pain and suffering from the compensation calculation leaves only grief and loss by the plaintiffs to be considered by the jury. The difference could amount to millions of dollars per victim. The plaintiffs’ lawyers said the 157 passengers and crew “undeniably suffered horrific emotional distress, pain and suffering, and physical impact/injury while they endured extreme G-forces, braced for impact, knew the airplane was malfunctioning, and ultimately plummeted nose-down to the ground at terrifying speed.”
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Old 20th Mar 2023, 04:33
  #973 (permalink)  
 
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"Acknowledging the terror of the passengers who were pretty sure they were about to die due to a design failure"

And just how would they know that? Did the flight loads differ in any significant way from many clear air turbulence events? The majority of the flight bounced around 1G; it was only the last 5 seconds that were below 0G. They certainly didn't know the plane was malfunctioning. The word "brace" doesn't appear in the final report indicating the pilots did not call for it.

Is pain and suffering for the injuries sustained? I've estimated the entire duration of the collision was less than 0.1 second, front to back; each row got roughly 1/266th of a second and more than 5000Gs. They didn't endure those forces, they did not experience those forces; there would be in that brief interval no time for sensation to arrive to experience or remember.

This comes across as a cash grab by lawyers who would otherwise get nothing from the settlement Boeing had previously promised. They want observers to imagine this was a 30 mph car crash and to extrapolate it as if the greater violence produced greater suffering. It is horrific to imagine, but the reality is that it was a slight flicker at the end of their conscious existence. It is sad for those left behind to have lost those they loved and cared about, but it is an especial cruelty of the lawyers to imply they suffered during the crash.

---

ET-302 MAX 8, 130 feet long, remove 30 feet for tail and nose ~100 feet passenger compartment. 700 mph => 1000 ft/sec so passenger compartment was involved for 0.1 second. Passengers evenly spaced 6 across = roughly 27 rows, so 0.1 sec/27 rows = 0.0037 seconds per row, going from 1000 ft/sec to 0 ft/sec. Since that 1000ft/sec happens in 0.0037 seconds that is just over 8,000 Gs. Nerve impulses travel at about 40 m/sec or 130 ft.sec, so the overall noticing from the first collision at the knees with the seat ahead advances at 14% the oncoming collision and never reaches the brain. At most the person at the back of the plane would not know about the collision for more than 1/10th of a second, about 3 frames in a typical movie projection.

Apparently the known highest G survivor:
The current record holder for surviving the most G’s in a crash is Kenny Bräck, who hit 214Gs for a few thousandths of a second in an Indy car crash in 2003
Kenny Bräck - Wikipedia
He broke his sternum, back, a femur, crushed both ankles so badly that the track doctor was collecting pieces of bone and put them in plastic bags labeled Left and Right to send to the hospital, and was in general so bashed up that they didn’t discover several broken ribs until several weeks later.
https://www.quora.com/What-would-hap...can-be-reached

The ET-302 collision had 40 times higher accelerations than severly damaged Brack, followed in the next 0.0037 seconds by another similar load from the passenger behind them, all the way back, and less that 0.1 seconds later by the rear pressure wall of the 737 MAX and the equipment behind that. That force for a 200 pound person is 1.6 Million pounds.
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Old 20th Mar 2023, 08:12
  #974 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MechEngr
The majority of the flight bounced around 1G; it was only the last 5 seconds that were below 0G.
The first negative g excursion was around 17 seconds before impact.

If I'd been a believer, I think I'd have started looking for my rosary at that point.
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Old 20th Mar 2023, 09:40
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
The first negative g excursion was around 17 seconds before impact.

If I'd been a believer, I think I'd have started looking for my rosary at that point.
It lasted for 5 seconds at ~-.4G and then returned to 1G before the final tip-over. Compare to the flight recently that shoved people hard enough into the overhead bins many popped open. Surprised? I'm sure, but unless that same surprise is action for millions of dollars in individual damages for clear air turbulence, it's not something that will be significant compared to thousands of prior turbulence events.

Compensation for emotional suffering by the families? Absolutely. Compensation for loss of companionship, loss of income? Without doubt.

But telling people their loved ones died in agony is cruel and untrue.

Were I in a similar situation I would likely just be saying "Sh*t, Sh*t, Sh*t, ..." all the way to the ground. Not panic - disappointment that I would not be going where I bought the ticket to go to. Having once narrowly avoided being decapitated in a traffic accident, I don't recall any more than some surprise at the sudden appearance of an obstacle at face height that, at the last second, swerved out of the way and was replaced by grass and several fence posts.
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Old 20th Mar 2023, 10:05
  #976 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MechEngr
But telling people their loved ones died in agony is cruel and untrue.
Well yes and no.

Were I in a similar situation I would likely just be saying "Sh*t, Sh*t, Sh*t, ..." all the way to the ground. Not panic - disappointment that I would not be going where I bought the ticket to go to.
While I don't see anyone arguing that death was other than instantaneous upon impact, suggesting that exasperation accompanied by a few mild expletives was the strongest emotion felt by those on board in the seconds before they died seems rather unlikely.


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Old 21st Mar 2023, 05:53
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suggesting that exasperation accompanied by a few mild expletives was the strongest emotion felt by those on board in the seconds before they died seems rather unlikely.
Absolutely Dave, I think the majority of pax these days are experienced enough with air travel to be aware that things are not proceeding normally, not gone back to the report, but sitting there for some minutes on a roller coaster ride with pitch and airspeed excursions is going to raise stress levels.

My dictionary defines “pain” as,

Noun – highly unpleasant physical sensation caused by illness or injury
Verb – cause mental or physical pain to

Knowing you’re about to die a violent death is going to bring about mental pain I would suggest, to the point of losing some bodily functions – heart attack, bowels, urinary, brought about by stress, in fact you don't even need the knowledge of pending death to bring about those results, sufficient stress is enough.

Willow for your contributions, thank you.
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Old 21st Mar 2023, 06:47
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So the next development will be that the AP will spear the plane in as soon as he detects that things go south, to save some bucks for the airplane manufacturer?
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Old 21st Mar 2023, 08:01
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Originally Posted by Big Pistons Forever
"... and ultimately plummeted nose-down to the ground at terrifying speed.”
Nothing like a good "plummeted" in the lawyers' descriptions, as much loved by redtop journalists as well, when your percentage of the settlement is under threat ...
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Old 21st Mar 2023, 19:48
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Resistance to commenting on this - to my mind anyway - surprising wrinkle in the lawsuit has crumbled. I may say something here that will be controversial, or even worse.

Not having worked many personal injury or wrongful death lawsuits in Illinois, I'll ignore the legal technicalities which appear to have been "in the conference room" when the manufacturer's defense attorneys decided to litigate this issue. My gut reaction to the story was.... disgust. Quickly followed by realizing some further cynicism would be in order here. I mean, after everything that's emerged about how and why the 737 MAX debacles happened, there is no objectivity, and there is no limit to the disgust.

As for the legal counsel representing the families, I think it's fair to say that the very successful (as in very, very) lead counsel does not have a reputation for making way-out arguments just to add to his net worth. He's successful way beyond that level. Which, however, doesn't answer the issue of what damages should be allowed....

Here's what bothers me the most. You're the PF or PM, and the event as documented by the flight recorders and as explained in the report (flawed as it may be) is unfolding, and as your "life flashes before your eyes" - that isn't pain? Or take another well-known air crash disaster: as American 191 indeed plummeted into Elk Grove Village, Illinois, just a short distance from the O'Hare runway where the engine on its left wing had separated, those aviators, stunned at what the airframe was doing, were not experiencing pain of impending, untimely death?

And let's not forget that airline pilots have come to be known as "drivers." I get in the driver's seat of my motor vehicle, buckle my safety belt, and at most I have 2 or 3 other people in the car. Aviators driving have hundreds in their flight vehicle. The drivers love to fly, and - not "but" - and it is an awesome responsibility. Seeing the ground rushing up, or the ocean, that isn't a "pain event" in the specific context of airline avaiatorship? Perhaps I'm romanticizing the commitment felt by drivers, but I will not accept the argument that it isn't excruciating when such an accident unfolds (even if it fails in a Chicago courtroom).

I hope it's not out-of-line improper to speak of the deceased pilots, in either crash. (The fact that the DC-10 was a "perfectly flyable airframe" - its stall speed fatally altered unbeknownst to its drivers - haunts me... as a reason to keep trying to bump my career over into aviation law and policy, especially safety.)

Of course, what passengers experience is a different set of facts to a large extent. But not completely different. I hope the judge hearing this case has some very dedicated law clerks to explore the legal issues to assist the court in making a ruling. "Hard cases make bad law", so the saying goes, but it's up to the law clerks to move the court's thinking to a higher plane.
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