West Atlantic ATP runway excursion in Birmingham
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I know of a few captains who feel it should be prohibited to film aircraft with such intent as can be found in numerous locations on the British Isles
Retired now but I always preferred wing down as opposed to crab in a brisk crosswind. Manufacturer was flexible up to around 25-30 kts but beyond that they preferred a crab technique. I appreciate the perception that going against the manufacturers recommended method of operating is increasingly difficult in this litigious world we live in.
Like others I don't like the expression 'kicking the rudder' when applied to the operation of medium to large transport aircraft. It may be a question of semantics but it could lead to misconceptions as was evidenced by the Airbus that lost its fin and rudder in NY just after 9/11.
Like others I don't like the expression 'kicking the rudder' when applied to the operation of medium to large transport aircraft. It may be a question of semantics but it could lead to misconceptions as was evidenced by the Airbus that lost its fin and rudder in NY just after 9/11.
..... Like others I don't like the expression 'kicking the rudder' when applied to the operation of medium to large transport aircraft (or any aircraft at all for that matter!!!!). It may be a question of semantics but it could lead to misconceptions as was evidenced by the Airbus that lost its fin and rudder in NY just after 9/11.
"Apply sufficient rudder pressure to smoothly bring the nose of the aircraft round to where you want it..." - just like any other control! Simples!!!!
Doing my IR training - textbook x-wind landing. Instructor on roll-out "H 'n' H, you are utterly hopeless on Instruments - but I'll give you your due, I couldn't do better on that landing myself!!!" Not sure that much changed!!!!!!!
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I hope the AAIB, who are going to be looking into this, have a really good look at these two pilots’ previous experience. I do not mean their recent experience but their overall claimed total experience for licence issue.
There have been many accidents in the past where claimed experience has not been substantiated. The Basle Vanguard accident immediately comes to mind.
The AAIB should ensure that claimed experience is genuine.
I have heard they have both been let go. Can anyone confirm?
There have been many accidents in the past where claimed experience has not been substantiated. The Basle Vanguard accident immediately comes to mind.
The AAIB should ensure that claimed experience is genuine.
I have heard they have both been let go. Can anyone confirm?
de minimus non curat lex
SKY “accident investigation” program interviewed some of the airline’s trainers who comments were somewhat surprising.....
Last edited by parkfell; 21st Jun 2020 at 09:13.
de minimus non curat lex
I believe Airtours had a pilot who carried out a substantial amount of “Parker Pen” flying.
Hove Crown Court sentenced him to 9 months, suspended & £ 4000 cost.
The CAA reset the trip counter to ZERO.
Reappeared at GLOBESPAN. Joe Foster (DFO) gave him a second chance.....understandable resentment when possibility of a Command appeared. More newspaper headlines......
I believe the CAA no longer accept sworn affidavits when logbooks go “missing” etc.....
Hove Crown Court sentenced him to 9 months, suspended & £ 4000 cost.
The CAA reset the trip counter to ZERO.
Reappeared at GLOBESPAN. Joe Foster (DFO) gave him a second chance.....understandable resentment when possibility of a Command appeared. More newspaper headlines......
I believe the CAA no longer accept sworn affidavits when logbooks go “missing” etc.....
You may well get away with large rudder applications on light aircraft, but to use that control input on that Airbus simply demonstrated very shoddy training.......
SKY “accident investigation” program interviewed some of the airline’s trainers who comments were some surprising.....
SKY “accident investigation” program interviewed some of the airline’s trainers who comments were some surprising.....
Yes, you may need to apply a sufficiently large control input to get the aircraft to do what you want it to do - but, ideally, you should always be ahead of the plane/anticipating that eventuality so that you detect any deviation early before it fully develops and "emergency measures" are needed. True, the Law of Sod can apply (particularly with the weather) and a freak gust hit you out the blue at the worst possible moment (we've all been there, had that!!!) - but you should still be as gentle as you can in the recovery. And you can usually predict when something is likely to happen (eg look upwind from the threshold on short final just in case there are large buildings which may cause you some fun & frollicks over the fence) and so your reaction when it does should be more "Mmmm, took a while before it threw that trick in!" rather than "Blimey, what the bleep was that???!!!".
Either way, in this case, it seems to be the zero use of rudder which assisted in the x-country roll-out. Anyway, just some thoughts FWIW!
As far as I know, the "side-slip, crossed controls during approach," "crab until flare, with rudder in the last few feet" - and even "plant it with some drift on" techniques are all taught and used.
Rudder yaw can lift the upwind wing (yaw/roll coupling) at the worst possible moment.
Which is appropriate for a given aircraft type or situation depends significantly on the aircraft geometry and ground clearance, and the possibility of a wing-, prop- or engine-strike if touching down with one wing low. Thus it is not one-size-fits-all.
It did occur to me that if this West Atlantic crew is rated for both WA's jets and ATPs, but had mostly been flying the jets the past few months, they might have "reverted to type" unintentionally under stress.
The ATP looks like an aircraft I would land in Xwind using crossed-controls/sideslip all the way to touchdown on one wheel. But the manual may say otherwise.
Rudder yaw can lift the upwind wing (yaw/roll coupling) at the worst possible moment.
Which is appropriate for a given aircraft type or situation depends significantly on the aircraft geometry and ground clearance, and the possibility of a wing-, prop- or engine-strike if touching down with one wing low. Thus it is not one-size-fits-all.
It did occur to me that if this West Atlantic crew is rated for both WA's jets and ATPs, but had mostly been flying the jets the past few months, they might have "reverted to type" unintentionally under stress.
The ATP looks like an aircraft I would land in Xwind using crossed-controls/sideslip all the way to touchdown on one wheel. But the manual may say otherwise.
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When I was at university in Birmingham in the late 1980s I used to spend many a happy hour on the observation deck at BHX. Back then the ATP was in passenger service with British Midland and Manx. I saw it land on many occasions and it didn’t seem to have any more or less trouble with crosswinds than other types so I don’t think one can blame the aircraft here.
With regard to Discorde’s question, by the time the runways needed extending in the 1960s, 06/24 was hemmed in by the railway and the A45 so I am guessing extending 15/33 was a lot cheaper. In the late 1980s 06/24 was still in use with full length (4,600ft) available and the occasional BAC111 and B737-200 would land on it if winds were strong enough.
With regard to Discorde’s question, by the time the runways needed extending in the 1960s, 06/24 was hemmed in by the railway and the A45 so I am guessing extending 15/33 was a lot cheaper. In the late 1980s 06/24 was still in use with full length (4,600ft) available and the occasional BAC111 and B737-200 would land on it if winds were strong enough.
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Originally Posted by wondering
Is it so difficult to build a level runway instead of this roller coaster?
It's actually not a roller coaster, just compression of perspective from a long lens!
My lament too, is that most airline pilots these days don't get intensive instruction or screening for handling techniques, and there are some truly abysmal examples out there. This video doesn't surprise me at all - in fact I'm surprised it doesn't happen more often!
There are too many instances of box ticking after two crosswind landings and then moving on to something else. For example, at the beginning of the simulator session ask the simulator instructor to hop in the seat and first demonstrate a max crosswind landing. A picture is worth a thousand words. Chances are he will ignore your request with a weak excuse that he suddenly has a sore toe or something. Not many simulator instructors are game enough to chance their arm by demonstrating.
Some may argue the simulator is nothing like the real aircraft in crosswind landings and therefore simulator practice on crosswind landings is a waste of time and could even be negative training whatever that may be. In that case, either the full flight simulator lacks fidelity which may be a maintenance problem, or someone doesn't know what he is talking about. Lack of knowledge by simulator technicians is a common problem and this can impact upon the fidelity of simulators.
A new pilot to type needs lots of handling practice. This includes crosswind takeoffs and landing in strong crosswinds. This is not a fun exercise thrown in only if time permits. One cost efficient method is to place the simulator at five miles final with the crosswind already set.at maximum.and all landing checks complete. Forget standard calls since a squawking nervous copilot unnecessarily rattling out "Speed" "Speed" "Track Track Track" is more of a hindrance to a new pilot than a help. Remember it is a training exercise not a test and the instructor needs to use common sense rather than play at back seat driving. Silence is golden in these situations. Remember though, the silence no talking policy is purely for the sake of the training exercise in the simulator and not necessarily the norm in real life. .
An average new to type pilot will need at least ten practice maximum component crosswind landings from five miles before he is confident enough to get the hang of things. It is the flare and touch down technique the student needs to get a handle on. Again, for the purpose of the exercise, there is no pressing need for the full roll-out to aircraft stopped. That comes later once the student is both competent and confident he can do a reasonably good job of the landing itself.
Once the nose-wheel is on the ground and the pilot has things under immediate control, there is nothing wrong with the simulator instructor freezing or pausing the simulator to discuss pertinent points of handling. Only then should the instructor re-position the simulator to five mile final once more and repeat the exercise.
If time is critical, repositioning for a one mile final may be necessary. Don't forget to change the crosswind to the other side once the student is reasonably competent. Once the student is confident with day max crosswind landings, then night crosswind landings should also be practiced.
Depending on the students progress, the simulator instructor may need to spend 40 minutes or more on this exercise before the student is confident he can hack it consistently well. But it is important that the PM is briefed to keep his mouth shut throughout this training and leave the simulator instructor to add his bit where needed.
Last edited by Judd; 22nd Jun 2020 at 07:05.
Good post, Judd, agree with all your points. A lot of basic flying control needs to be learned by doing. Having people constantly talking at you is a distraction - let the student just fly and get the hang of it. Nobody would expect an orchestra flute player to go through a piece of music twice with an instructor prompting them, and then be able to play it well in front of an audience. They would need practice. The SIM is a safe place to practice the basic technique and coordination, followed by some crosswind landings in the real plane.
I spent about 3 years flying turboprops (including at EGBB), and really got my crosswind landing technique sorted, which helped when I transferred onto big jets.
Transport policy in the UK is woeful. First we had Beeching rip up most of the train branch lines. Now we still have airports with no train links - at Edinburgh for example there is a double train line running past about a mile from the end of RWY24, but no rail link to the actual airport ! Forget HS2, let's get the basics sorted first.
The hump at EGBB RWY15 is, or used to be, right at the point where you wanted to put the mains down, especially on a turbulent day. So you had to land spot on, or late, or ride the hump as you were flaring. Not a massive problem, but a significant one and something you could do without on some tricky days !
The HR method of recruitment by testing your mental maths and verbal reasoning etc - that we all have to endure these days to get a flying job - is not much use if someone doesn't actually know how to fly in the first place !
I spent about 3 years flying turboprops (including at EGBB), and really got my crosswind landing technique sorted, which helped when I transferred onto big jets.
Transport policy in the UK is woeful. First we had Beeching rip up most of the train branch lines. Now we still have airports with no train links - at Edinburgh for example there is a double train line running past about a mile from the end of RWY24, but no rail link to the actual airport ! Forget HS2, let's get the basics sorted first.
The hump at EGBB RWY15 is, or used to be, right at the point where you wanted to put the mains down, especially on a turbulent day. So you had to land spot on, or late, or ride the hump as you were flaring. Not a massive problem, but a significant one and something you could do without on some tricky days !
The HR method of recruitment by testing your mental maths and verbal reasoning etc - that we all have to endure these days to get a flying job - is not much use if someone doesn't actually know how to fly in the first place !
When you operate in northwestern europe, you are guaranteed to encounter high winds somewhere during any given year. Scandinavia, the Benelux, Britain/Ireland are all In the middle of wind paradise.
You grow up with it, and you fly in wind a lot. It becomes easier if you know what you are doing.
I have landed at Amsterdam in gale force winds. On several occasions we had so much wind that my windshield was dirty after landing due to salt residue. Caused by sea water sprayed up from the north sea!
30 knots crosswind is nothing to worry about. If you cant handle 30 knots, get some training. It isn’t even the max limit.
You grow up with it, and you fly in wind a lot. It becomes easier if you know what you are doing.
I have landed at Amsterdam in gale force winds. On several occasions we had so much wind that my windshield was dirty after landing due to salt residue. Caused by sea water sprayed up from the north sea!
30 knots crosswind is nothing to worry about. If you cant handle 30 knots, get some training. It isn’t even the max limit.
de minimus non curat lex
Probably the best UK location for twin engined flying with multiple routes and airports to visit. It would not be uncommon for an IRT candidate on TEST to be flying an approach not previously flown in the ac for the first time.
The overall training experience prepared the student for such a situation.
Developed their AIRMANSHIP and handling skills to the full.
In the UK you need to get north of 54°30’N to get the real value of training. Contentious moi?
Last edited by parkfell; 22nd Jun 2020 at 10:10.