Here's something to keep you at the edge of your seat
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Yes, written down, logged and checked, that is my whole point !
Then pilots will have to do it and prove they did it. That way we mandate manual flying. A small start, agreed, but it would foster an atmosphere of encouragement to keep one's skills sharp.
You might be one who does a fully manual approach every day, but trust me there are many who keep all the automatics in until past 1000' agl and then they wonder why their skills are rusty when they screw up even an ILS when they attempt it manually.
Then pilots will have to do it and prove they did it. That way we mandate manual flying. A small start, agreed, but it would foster an atmosphere of encouragement to keep one's skills sharp.
You might be one who does a fully manual approach every day, but trust me there are many who keep all the automatics in until past 1000' agl and then they wonder why their skills are rusty when they screw up even an ILS when they attempt it manually.
"Alright Bloggs, my controls. Time to put the hood on"
even simply saying "I am going to go-around around, are you ready?" might help enormously.
Tongue-in-cheek of course. But seriously, where does this warm and fuzzy pat the doggy attitude, stop?
Forgive my light plane flying ignorance.
If, in any large passenger jet, the power levers are manually advanced to full power - i.e. firewalled, you will get full power regardless of auto-throttle or autopilot settings, right?
In other words, manual advance of the power levers will over-ride all automatics?
If, in any large passenger jet, the power levers are manually advanced to full power - i.e. firewalled, you will get full power regardless of auto-throttle or autopilot settings, right?
In other words, manual advance of the power levers will over-ride all automatics?
On the subject of briefing: back in the day, I was taught that a go-around is always an option and is always briefed for. More than that, I was taught that you don't approach to land with the option to go around if the approach goes pear-shaped: instead, you approach to a go-around with the option to land if the ducks are in a row. It sounds like the same thing but it fosters a different attitude. But I've read elsewhere in this forum that nowadays some airlines' desk-flyers will hang you if, with 20-20-hindsight, they can find a reason why you shouldn't have gone around, as well as (as PilotLZ said up there) if the snapshot at 1000 feet AAL on final is not quite right.
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In other words, manual advance of the power levers will over-ride all automatics?
Can only speak for B737. The answer is Yes... but it's not that clear cut.
The autothrottle servo motors can easily ge over ridden but if you don't fly the automatics as intended the same servo will bring back the thrust levers as soon as you let go of them. In a go-around scenario you either have to press TOGA switches or disconnect the autothrottle and manually advance.
'Manually advance thrust levers.'
As in Here's something to keep you at the edge of your seat #51
And for those who depend on the FD, what do the TOGA buttons do with the AT Off, FGS mode; either in the air or on the ground during GA ?
As in Here's something to keep you at the edge of your seat #51
And for those who depend on the FD, what do the TOGA buttons do with the AT Off, FGS mode; either in the air or on the ground during GA ?
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kontroler,
What is 'proper decision making' ?
and if a person lacks this ability, how might we know ?
Similarly for 'stream of bad airmanship and lack of command of situation, let alone no CRM.'
Not with biased hindsight.
What is 'proper decision making' ?
and if a person lacks this ability, how might we know ?
Similarly for 'stream of bad airmanship and lack of command of situation, let alone no CRM.'
Not with biased hindsight.
And what if the 250 hour cadet second in command pipes up and replies he is not ready because you haven't briefed him on your step by step sequence of actions to conduct a go-around and exactly why you have decided to go-around in the first place.
Tongue-in-cheek of course. But seriously, where does this warm and fuzzy pat the doggy attitude, stop?
Well, in your situation, firstly you would know that a pre-brief would be a very good idea to prepare the F/O and to review all the important actions. A 250hr F/O will not necessarily be able to perform perfectly in the real airplane when something unusual is thrown at them even though they will have passed all the tests in the SIM. You need to nurture your inexperienced crew. They are the equivalent of learner drivers.
I never said you needed to explain your reasons for going around, nor did I say that a pre-brief needed to be a long drawn out process
A go-around is an unusual procedure which we rarely do. In theory, we should all be expecting it on every approach, and would all perform it faultlessly it was required. But we also know this doesn't always happen. A very senior training Captain and his F/O at a previous airline both forgot the gear and left it down during a go-around in a 757. Had he taken 5 seconds to run through the important actions before actually calling the go-around, it might have made it run more smoothly.
.....in any large passenger jet, the power levers are manually advanced to full power - i.e. firewalled, you will get full power regardless of auto-throttle or autopilot settings, right?
In other words, manual advance of the power levers will over-ride all automatics?
172_driver explains this: in some types having pushed the levers forward you will get maximum thrust, but if you then let go, (to put both hands on the yoke for example), the levers will be motored back towards idle unless you also press a separate TOGA button.
The point I was making earlier is that Airbus have designed-out this conundrum by engineering the manual TOGA switches so they do not need to be separately found and pressed and can ONLY be selected by pushing the thrust levers fully forward - which is obviously where the levers need to be !
Airbus FBW thrust levers fully forward = TOGA, no ifs or buts
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they would teach him flying techinque and proper decision making, which he clearly lacks.
Also, you will find that skill deficiency of an airline pilot is rarely, if ever, solved by sending said pilot to glider school. Finding root cause and creating a bespoke training training plan with simulator and line training is a much better tool.
its not the fact that he pressed the button, it was all what preceeded that, stream of bad airmanship and lack of command of situation, let alone no CRM.
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The TOGA switches on the MD are palm switches. You are supposed to push the throttles forward and with your palm press the switches. Unlike the 737, you will get full thrust on the MD, and even if you can’t hear the engines, you will feel the push when thrust is set.
No matter what way they design the TOGA switches, thumb, index finger, palm or just throttles forward, we pilots will find a way to make it not work.
No matter what way they design the TOGA switches, thumb, index finger, palm or just throttles forward, we pilots will find a way to make it not work.
Forgive my light plane flying ignorance.
If, in any large passenger jet, the power levers are manually advanced to full power - i.e. firewalled, you will get full power regardless of auto-throttle or autopilot settings, right?
In other words, manual advance of the power levers will over-ride all automatics?
If, in any large passenger jet, the power levers are manually advanced to full power - i.e. firewalled, you will get full power regardless of auto-throttle or autopilot settings, right?
In other words, manual advance of the power levers will over-ride all automatics?
However things are not always that simple - as 172 points out, if the autothrottle is active it may start pulling the throttles back (although on some installations a large manual override of the A/T will cause it to disconnect). Further, with wing mounted engines you're going to get a significant pitch-up moment from the increasing engine thrust (FBW will largely hide that, although it's still there - and if FBW is in a degraded mode for some reason you can get a big surprise)(not an issue with the MD-80 series tall mounted engines).
From an engine guy's perspective, simply firewalling the the levers can create another issue - pre-FADEC (or FADEC operating in degraded mode) - you can get a big engine overboost. Not only is this really hard on the engines (and has been known to cause engine failure), the pitch-up moment with wing mounted engines will be much larger - potentially enough to make aircraft control difficult.
If memory serves, the MD-80 engines are pre-FADEC, which may have influenced the crew's actions with regard to manually advancing the throttles.
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And what if the 250 hour cadet second in command pipes up and replies he is not ready because you haven't briefed him on your step by step sequence of actions to conduct a go-around and exactly why you have decided to go-around in the first place.
Tongue-in-cheek of course. But seriously, where does this warm and fuzzy pat the doggy attitude, stop?
A 250hr F/O will not necessarily be able to perform perfectly in the real airplane when something unusual is thrown at them even though they will have passed all the tests in the SIM. You need to nurture your inexperienced crew. They are the equivalent of learner drivers.
Presumably the F/O has a command type rating before being qualified to act as second in command of a jet transport. Thank goodness the passengers are not aware the first officer is considered to be the equivalent of a learner driver and needs to be "nurtured.".
Just ask yourself honestly if the situation occurred where the captain becomes incapacitated in the cruise at 37,000 ft would the 250 hour first officer be able to safely fly that aircraft solo IMC all the way from cruise to the landing while making all the radio calls to ATC etc. Especially as his company limits him to a max crosswind component of 15 knots.
The uncomfortable truth is the airlines count on the statistical probability that this combination of circumstances will never happen in our lifetime. Next question please..
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Presumably the F/O has a command type rating before being qualified to act as second in command of a jet transport. Thank goodness the passengers are not aware the first officer is considered to be the equivalent of a learner driver and needs to be "nurtured.".
Just ask yourself honestly if the situation occurred where the captain becomes incapacitated in the cruise at 37,000 ft would the 250 hour first officer be able to safely fly that aircraft solo IMC all the way from cruise to the landing while making all the radio calls to ATC etc. Especially as his company limits him to a max crosswind component of 15 knots.
The uncomfortable truth is the airlines count on the statistical probability that this combination of circumstances will never happen in our lifetime. Next question please..
Only half a speed-brake
Just ask yourself honestly if the situation occurred where the captain becomes incapacitated in the cruise at 37,000 ft would the 250 hour first officer be able to safely fly that aircraft solo IMC all the way from cruise to the landing while making all the radio calls to ATC etc. Especially as his company limits him to a max crosswind component of 15 knots.
It depends who trains them, and to what standard are they made to perform.
I am not disputing a narrow field of vision, non-existent experience, nor being just inches ahead of aircraft. But a single handed return to land with a malfunction is a piece of cake. They're young, sharp and motivated..
Last edited by FlightDetent; 4th Jun 2020 at 06:06.
de minimus non curat lex
Perfectly capable. At 250 hrs, completely every single one of them. And all done by the book too.
It depends who trains them, and to what standard are they made to perform.
I am not disputing a narrow field of vision, non-existent experience, nor being just inches ahead of aircraft. But a single handed return to land with a malfunction is a piece of cake. They're young, sharp and motivated..
It depends who trains them, and to what standard are they made to perform.
I am not disputing a narrow field of vision, non-existent experience, nor being just inches ahead of aircraft. But a single handed return to land with a malfunction is a piece of cake. They're young, sharp and motivated..
You would be amazed what a MPL student is capable of achieving at the end of phase 3.
Phase 4 is the type rating.
I am not talking about their ability to control an airplane.
