PIA A320 Crash Karachi
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The PM was confused with gear actions. On first approach at 1700ft mechanically did something to the gear lever. To his bad luck it was down he put it up. After go around again irrationally did something to the gear lever. This time it was up he put it down but realizing it was up he put the lever back. What they did with flaps is not known but must have retracted to zero and again lowered. When did they lower the gear is a mystery because it wasn't lowered by gravity extension.
It is too much to expect they would start APU or any checklist for dual flame out. It was of no use anyway.
It is too much to expect they would start APU or any checklist for dual flame out. It was of no use anyway.
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My question is 1) when did they realize they had dual engine failure and 2) had they already put the gear back down the final time? Or did they somehow know they had no engines YET put gear down anyway, not realizing it would kill their glide range?
Last edited by Joejosh999; 7th Jul 2020 at 19:37.
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Is there not a third option for (2) along the lines of: did they actually think the gear was down for the landing(*) and then "raised" it (but actually lowered it - continuing previous apparent state of confusion on this) to extend the glide when they realized they had no engines.
(*) thinking it's maybe possible they went around having, belatedly, realized they were too fast and brakes / reversers weren't kicking in, but not actually realizing they had landed gear-up.
(*) thinking it's maybe possible they went around having, belatedly, realized they were too fast and brakes / reversers weren't kicking in, but not actually realizing they had landed gear-up.
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From the videos of the final moments, it looked to me as if he was trying to find alpha max, but the protections were gone with the gear extension.
Despite all the cock-ups, it does appear that they were tantalising close to making the undershoot area, and perhaps walking away.
Just another marker in a sad catalogue of failures.
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As vilas pointed out, whether they started the APU or not, little was going to change their fortunes; a handful of electrical things spurring back into life (in daylight VMC), but no engines and no change in flight control laws (it would remain in direct law if my knowledge doesn’t fail me) wasn’t really going to help them that much. The gear down, ironically, is what drove the final nail in the coffin
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Never having tried it, I can’t speak from experience, but the second attempt was the one that would have benefited from the gear being up. The gear works better than the speed brakes in the 320. If I’m not mistaken, they crashed about a mile from the runway.
With the absence of the FDR data, we probably won’t know exactly when they lowered the gear, but I’m guessing if they’d waited until ~200ft to drop it, they may have walked away.
That of course assumes the windmilling engines would produce sufficient pressure to lower the gear and support the flight controls. That procedure would take a bit of planning and thought, which in fairness, even on a good day, would probably be difficult under the circumstances.
In my opinion, starting the APU would definitely have helped.
With the absence of the FDR data, we probably won’t know exactly when they lowered the gear, but I’m guessing if they’d waited until ~200ft to drop it, they may have walked away.
That of course assumes the windmilling engines would produce sufficient pressure to lower the gear and support the flight controls. That procedure would take a bit of planning and thought, which in fairness, even on a good day, would probably be difficult under the circumstances.
In my opinion, starting the APU would definitely have helped.
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Can someone enlighten me as to whether the Insurers are likely to pay out given what has all the hallmarks of grave Gross Misconduct by the crew.
Add to that, the issue of whether any evidence is uncovered as to whether the licences were issued “fair and square”, and their continuing validity iaw licensing regulations.
Simply asking the question. I have no information one way or the other.
Add to that, the issue of whether any evidence is uncovered as to whether the licences were issued “fair and square”, and their continuing validity iaw licensing regulations.
Simply asking the question. I have no information one way or the other.
A friend of mine was a pax in an A320 accident at Bahrain. Religious considerations meant his wife did not get any compensation, but his closest male relative did and did not share it with the wife.
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In my opinion, starting the APU would definitely have helped.
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Can someone enlighten me as to whether the Insurers are likely to pay out given what has all the hallmarks of grave Gross Misconduct by the crew.
If an insurance company (actually, the underwriter whether that's a name, another insurance company, or the Government as last resort) is unhappy with the potential risk then it's their problem and their responsibility to either ensure the problem is fixed or deny cover in the first place, at which point the airline wouldn't fly.
Again we will have to wait for the full report.
From the videos of the final moments, it looked to me as if he was trying to find alpha max, but the protections were gone with the gear extension.
Despite all the cock-ups, it does appear that they were tantalising close to making the undershoot area, and perhaps walking away.
Just another marker in a sad catalogue of failures.
From the videos of the final moments, it looked to me as if he was trying to find alpha max, but the protections were gone with the gear extension.
Despite all the cock-ups, it does appear that they were tantalising close to making the undershoot area, and perhaps walking away.
Just another marker in a sad catalogue of failures.
Only half a speed-brake
@vilas I am away from the books. Does APU elec supply restore ALT law with AoA protection? That is for the Hudson (gear up) case.
Sully is a short-hand for "the crew of US Airways 1549", I suppose. 😉
Sully is a short-hand for "the crew of US Airways 1549", I suppose. 😉
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ELEC EMER itself is in alternate law with reduced protections. With dual Engine flame out APU doesn't restore anything except AC Bus2. Even AC essential bus remains locked with emergency generator.
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Am I missing something? APU gets you out of ELEC EMER that brings CM2 instruments, it can take over pressurization, main use is starter assisted relight which wasn't going to happen. None of this would change PK8303 fate. Sully started APU from memory as good airmanship to get an engine going but once that didn't happen he also got no other help from APU. It doesn't get you out of G+Y. In PK8303 once they lowered the gear they were done in. Even if they could raise it they would've lost more height.
Starting the APU early in the accident sequence proved to be critical because it improved the outcome of the ditching by ensuring that electrical power was available to the airplane. Further, if the captain had not started the APU, the airplane would not have remained in normal law mode.
[...]
The NTSB concludes that, despite being unable to complete the Engine Dual Failure checklist, the captain started the APU, which improved the outcome of the ditching by ensuring that a primary source of electrical power was available to the airplane and that the airplane remained in normal law and maintained the flight envelope protections, one of which protects against a stall.
[...]
The NTSB concludes that, despite being unable to complete the Engine Dual Failure checklist, the captain started the APU, which improved the outcome of the ditching by ensuring that a primary source of electrical power was available to the airplane and that the airplane remained in normal law and maintained the flight envelope protections, one of which protects against a stall.
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Quote:
Starting the APU early in the accident sequence proved to be critical because it improved the outcome of the ditching by ensuring that electrical power was available to the airplane. Further, if the captain had not started the APU, the airplane would not have remained in normal law mode.
[...]
The NTSB concludes that, despite being unable to complete the Engine Dual Failure checklist, the captain started the APU, which improved the outcome of the ditching by ensuring that a primary source of electrical power was available to the airplane and that the airplane remained in normal law and maintained the flight envelope protections, one of which protects against a stall.
Starting the APU early in the accident sequence proved to be critical because it improved the outcome of the ditching by ensuring that electrical power was available to the airplane. Further, if the captain had not started the APU, the airplane would not have remained in normal law mode.
[...]
The NTSB concludes that, despite being unable to complete the Engine Dual Failure checklist, the captain started the APU, which improved the outcome of the ditching by ensuring that a primary source of electrical power was available to the airplane and that the airplane remained in normal law and maintained the flight envelope protections, one of which protects against a stall.
Last edited by vilas; 9th Jul 2020 at 16:45.
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I recall from the movie (assume accurate) that Sully started APU nearly immediately, and also that on QRH it was actually pretty far down the list of things to do, like 15th or 17th, such that you wonder how things might have worked out if they’d gone step by step thru QREf (or if they’d even had time to do so...)
Only half a speed-brake