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PIA A320 Crash Karachi

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PIA A320 Crash Karachi

Old 30th Jun 2020, 12:42
  #1521 (permalink)  
 
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vilas

I’d have to go back through emails to find the charts to give you the exact distance from back then as they were restricted distribution (military / civil) and the airport and runway has since been upgraded as I went to measure the distance on GE just now.
We were shouting and waiting for the crash. Obviously light and hard on the anchors.
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Old 30th Jun 2020, 13:00
  #1522 (permalink)  

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Euclideanplane

If the final report leaves no stone unturned, then his whole training history including the selection process, and latter development will shed light on those aspects of the jigsaw puzzle yet to be revealed.

If he had “psychiatric issues” or an abnormal personality, how was it possible to obtain an Initial Class One Medical?
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Old 30th Jun 2020, 13:18
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Originally Posted by compressor stall
Have you been fasting too?

I do not believe for a second that the crew decided to land wheels up.
No, you misunderstand me. By not sorting out the late hot-and-high descent when they had plenty of time and airspace to do so, and after ATC suggested this several times, including a direct instruction to turn away from the approach - that was the negligence by the pilots.

Continuing a landing attempt while not configured, not on speed, barely on profile, no landing checklist completed and not stable - that was negligence too.

Of course they did not intend to crash, but I have tried to think why a supposedly fully qualified and experienced crew would get so badly out of shape, yet still continue to a frankly suicidal landing attempt. I don't believe they intended to land gear up either. That got missed because they were at least 20nm behind the aircraft.

It was on the CVR?
Was it? Have you actually heard the CVR? Could the Covid comment by (I forget which official) be an attempt to distract us from extremely poor piloting? - not that it would be any excuse.

Really?
I don't know do I? hence I said 'maybe'. It has happened before. I am just trying to imagine why this crash happened. Why did the pilots not break off the descent and sort themselves out and make a proper approach? I am just trying to think what could possibly have happened on that flight deck that resulted in such a tragic and fatal crash.
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Old 30th Jun 2020, 13:24
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Ok, now it’s a bit clearer.

have tried to think why a supposedly fully qualified and experienced crew ... still continue to a frankly suicidal landing attempt.
my feeling is that it starts with “cul” and ends with “ture”
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Old 30th Jun 2020, 14:48
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I agree too many things bundled up together. About the incident in India which runway are you talking about? Just curiosity as I am from India. Rare but such things (total break down of human machine) do happen once in a blue moon and we land up with such accidents like PIA 8303. There are just too many cognitive biases we all are susceptible and not even aware of. While we as human would consider us as superman but the fact is that we are the weakest link in this human machine interface. Pilots swear by their ability to juggle multiple tasks while flying but the fact is that human as species just can not multitask. Most of the times we are not aware of of our inherent limitations. Juxtaposing this limitation with the scene in side PIA 8303 there is no doubt that the crew would have been mentally saturated by the number of events taking place.
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Old 30th Jun 2020, 15:29
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The truth is on the tapes. And in the minds of those who knew this crew. They were hired, trained and checked by professionals, some of whom may be shocked but not surprised by this event.
The disruption caused by the current pandemic has upset everything in the industry, including subtle but essential unspoken rules. Some pilots should never be scheduled to fly together
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Old 30th Jun 2020, 15:30
  #1527 (permalink)  
 
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I have to say I have flown several times with Pakistan Nationals and on all occasions found them to be very competent and professional. I would go as far as to say much better than most other nationalities I’ve flown with. Do not judge all by the unfortunate behaviour of a few. Do not judge a person simply because of their nationality.

I’ll also stick to my original post a few weeks ago. I simply think this accident occurred because of the maverick attitude of the Captain and the lack of confidence in the FO to speak up and intervene.

PIA need a good kick up the arse and need to get outside help to get their shop in order and I think it should start with MCC and CRM.
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Old 30th Jun 2020, 16:19
  #1528 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Airbubba
According to this tweet from an American expat in Pakistan (she famously claims to be a #MeToo victim of local politicians), the PK8303 captain had failed a psych test when he first applied to PIA as a Cadet Pilot. He appealed and a Sindh judge ordered him hired.

The guy applied as a Cadet with PIA ?? I thought he was a former military pilot...
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Old 30th Jun 2020, 16:27
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Interesting observation. Crew compatibility?
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Old 30th Jun 2020, 16:29
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I agree. I have read many accidents from all over the world which are as bizarre and unthinkable.
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Old 30th Jun 2020, 17:10
  #1531 (permalink)  

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No, sir. Of all I could remember, the crews were trying to avoid hazard and save the aeroplane, even if those actions did on occasions seal their fate. Not this one.

This crew landed the aircraft inside the overspeed range, beyond the redline on the speed-meter, about 140 km/h faster than normally acceptable. Imagine yourself parking a car into a garage with a sideways-folding door that'd be unlocked yet closed. Right through them and doing 20 mph with gear engaged! That is the civil life equivalent of how they approached the touchdown zone. Dead serious, no joke.

Neither of the two, sad to say, was fit to act in the role of an Air Transport Pilot that day.

(Let's forget the gear, that is not beyond imaginable - double selection leading to a reversal of the assumed position, under mental overload.)

Last edited by FlightDetent; 30th Jun 2020 at 21:30.
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Old 30th Jun 2020, 18:55
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Originally Posted by olster
Whatever the excuses trotted out, covid etc, truly shocking levels of incompetence.
Yep, the excuses will become ever more convoluted with time.

We must pretend that this could happen to any of us, low blood sugar, some warnings were inhibited, we must not judge from a Western cultural perspective etc.

And, I realize that the report must come up with some convenient fiction to explain away this idiotic Banzai Kamikaze flight profile. They did not know, the controller didn't tell them that they shouldn't cross the threshold at 210 knots gear up, the cabin crew didn't tell the captain that the engines scraped.

I realize that very few folks here are professional pilots so I hope my criticism doesn't sound insensitive or harsh. The PIA crew were good people who made poor choices and were trying to turn their lives around when the engines quit.

I remember flying in the Third World decades ago with a Pan Am captain named Doug. He was a grizzled old Marine, gruff and to the point. When I would be amazed at how screwed up things were in the air and on the ground he would comment, 'What you have to remember Airbubba is that these people are not from Chicago!'

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Old 30th Jun 2020, 21:00
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Originally Posted by Airbubba
And, I realize that the report must come up with some convenient fiction to explain away this idiotic Banzai Kamikaze flight profile. They did not know, the controller didn't tell them that they shouldn't cross the threshold at 210 knots gear up, the cabin crew didn't tell the captain that the engines scraped.'
Minister Khan seemed to have sorted all that out already. Only thing the rest of us are still unaware of is what omissions were made by the passengers.
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Old 30th Jun 2020, 21:16
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Originally Posted by Rednerib
Pilots swear by their ability to juggle multiple tasks while flying but the fact is that human as species just can not multitask. Most of the times we are not aware of of our inherent limitations. Juxtaposing this limitation with the scene in side PIA 8303 there is no doubt that the crew would have been mentally saturated by the number of events taking place.
OK, if humans cannot multitask, we can call it time-slicing. The fact remains that on the face of it, this crew were unable to manage their aircraft in a situation where the vast majority of other crews would have been so able......and probably would not have got themselves into any one of the multitude of adverse situations that arose on the day of the flight.
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Old 30th Jun 2020, 21:35
  #1535 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by Airbubba
... very few folks here are professional pilots so I hope my criticism doesn't sound insensitive or harsh.
And you have not even started. Here's one for you, they did narrowly missed a school. Pin at the crash location. Zoom out and then there's no need to tell each other which dots need connecting...

Last edited by FlightDetent; 30th Jun 2020 at 23:34.
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Old 30th Jun 2020, 22:45
  #1536 (permalink)  
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I doubt anyone that was sounding like Joe Cool, would be suffering from hypoglycaemia. Their bold, erm, and spelling.

These are often called the “warning signs” of hypoglycemia. Lack of glucose to the brain can cause trouble concentrating, changes in vision, slurred speech, lack of coordination, headaches, dizziness, and drowsiness. Hypoglycemia can also cause changes in emotions and mood.
I've told so many tales of bewildering things happening that you might think I'm not fazed by this accident. But I am. Bewildered. I can usually come up with some bit of lateral thinking that would explain things, at least is someone's universe, but not for this. Given their speech wasn't slurred (ATC data) then there's not much left but a native incompetence that has been rescued time and again with automation. But I somehow I even doubt that.
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Old 30th Jun 2020, 23:37
  #1537 (permalink)  
 
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Excuse me if I do not unnerstan the ROE here.

I see countless posts about ethnic and political characteristics of various airline crews. I do not like that, but it is likely a fact of life that crews will tend to follow their background for many aspects of their professional performance. I also do not relish reading opinions about how incompetent a crew is until all the facts are known - wait until it's your eulogy at the funeral, huh? I'll meet you at that neat bar in the sky for a beer.

So an attempt to get all the crapola outta the way and talk about some technical and FCOM procedural things concerning gear up/down, go around, etc, was deleted over on the "tech log". Beats the hell outta me, and lots less ethnic and political discussion. Seems we could discover how the 'bus gear up/down criteria works and other stuff that may be a factor in the crash.

But what do I know? I just wanna have a happy feeling next time I fly in one of those jets.
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Old 30th Jun 2020, 23:54
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Fife by, Gums!
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Old 1st Jul 2020, 02:21
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Bewildered. I can usually come up with some bit of lateral thinking that would explain things, at least is someone's universe, but not for this. Given their speech wasn't slurred (ATC data) then there's not much left but a native incompetence that has been rescued time and again with automation. But I somehow I even doubt that.
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The only thing I can come up with is that the crew panicked and were no longer capable of thinking logically. Was it fear of punishment if they went around? Was it stress from being stood down and thinking they would be out of work again? No-one will ever know. I don't agree that it was native incompetence but in my mind the only thing that can explain such irrational decision making is panic by the PIC which affected the F/O. How do you counter that? I don't think you can as it is an individual response and will only manifest itself in unusual circumstances.
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Old 1st Jul 2020, 03:08
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Seems we could discover how the 'bus gear up/down criteria works and other stuff that may be a factor in the crash.
If it had been a factor Airbus would have issued a Technical Notification to all airlines. Unfortunately some "pilots" can screw up royally, probably did not set out to do it but did. Recognizing you have messed up and doing something about it is what makes a "professional" pilot, not "pressonitus".
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