PIA A320 Crash Karachi

[sheppey]

For those wondering how did it happen a review of Garuda GA200 might be in order,the 737 touched down at an airspeed of 221 knots, 87 knots faster than landing speed for 40 degrees flap and ran off the end at 110 knots, though they did have the gear down in this case.

That Garuda debacle and other similar tragic accidents could easily have been averted if the copilot had the moral courage to force a go-around at any time on the approach by simply calling aloud "GO AROUND - GEAR UP - and simultaneously selected gear up. Even the most culturally mad captain would not deliberately land gear up just to make a point.
In 1982 a Japan Airlines DC8 was deliberately flown into Tokyo Bay by its Japanese captain killing several passengers . The CVR revealed a frantic call by the copilot pleading with the captain not to kill him. The captain survived and was found to be insane. He was jailed and released in later years. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Airlines_Flight_350
Culture has a lot to answer for in some societies

[jmmoric]

Originally Posted by sheppey

That Garuda debacle and other similar tragic accidents could easily have been averted if the copilot had the moral courage to force a go-around at any time on the approach by simply calling aloud "GO AROUND - GEAR UP - and simultaneously selected gear up. Even the most culturally mad captain would not deliberately land gear up just to make a point.

"Wait.... what did you say??"

And...... sliding along the runway....

[parkfell]

Originally Posted by sheppey

That Garuda debacle and other similar tragic accidents could easily have been averted if the copilot had the moral courage to force a go-around at any time on the approach by simply calling aloud "GO AROUND - GEAR UP - and simultaneously selected gear up. Even the most culturally mad captain would not deliberately land gear up just to make a point.

The culture stems from the top of the airline management and emanates down all the way to the ‘shop floor’.

It would be interesting to analyse previous worldwide events, say in the last 10 years, to determine if had the first officer ‘piped up’ ( and probably complied with the SOPs ) the accident would have been averted, and avoiding mention of “Swiss cheese”. Probably research for a prospective PhD student?

Culture invariably plays a part in all accidents; those aspects which inhibits the SOPs from being carried out is a mission which all training departments need to adopt to eradicate, and eliminate “SKYGODS”. Without that commitment avoidable accidents will not diminish.

[PJ2]

Re "culture stems from the top...all the way to the 'shop floor' ." Indeed it does and this is true of any & all human organizational behaviour. Take a look at Flight Safety Foundation Human Factors & Aviation Medicine, Vol.37 No.2, Mar/Apr 1990 entitled Orchestrating the Human Symphony in Flight Operations, authored by John Nance and still available @ https://flightsafety.org/hf/hf_mar-apr90.pdf

Whether a country, a band, a family, a classroom or an airline, people take their cues as to what is acceptable and legitimate from whoever is at the top; - from the behaviour and standards they demonstrate and what they tolerate and what they won't. That's where to put resources and that's also where to nip things in the bud, if that is the desire or the need. There are plenty of examples of this principle in our midst these days.

[a5in_the_sim]

Best Captains CRM course I ever attended (with one of the best CRM instructors I’ve ever known) started with the following written on the board at the front of the room:-
“Don’t be a dick.”..........Discuss!

[Wizofoz]

Originally Posted by parkfell

Gary

Was the landing clearance issued by approach radar (coordination with the aerodrome controller)?
Slightly odd phraseology?
The veracity of this transcript needs to be confirmed perhaps?

This will have been a salutary lesson for the unfortunate approach controller who I suspect will be somewhat more assertive when a blatantly obvious anomaly occurs in future.

MPN11 ~ I concur.

SOP in Pakistan.

[grizzled]

Wiz: Which part of the quote are you saying is "SOP in Pakistan"? An honest question out of interest.

[vilas]

. Probably 8303 could have opened full power before touch down ...jet engines take long to spool up...and in the process could have led to more touch downs....of course we should wait for the official report.....

They crossed the RW threshold 75kts faster than approach speed. Had opened throttle and pulled up he would have reached 500 ft just by dropping that speed and TOGA power comes up in 9seconds it's not too long.

[Lookleft]

What would have been interesting from a HF point of view is why the crew were so committed to getting on the ground from a spectacularly bad approach, then as soon as they hit the ground (I won't assume to call it a landing) they were then equally committed if not more so to getting the thing back into the air!

[FlightDetent]

Originally Posted by Lookleft

were then equally committed if not more so to getting the thing back into the air!

and even with the abundance of speed and lift available exactly for that, swept the tarmac yet twice more.

Come to think of it, perhaps they tried to stay on the ground and only abandoned that plan after the third touch, lacking the deceleration (no spoilers, no brakes) and trying not to overrun.

I probably could imagine someone not lowering the gear in the heat of such moment, and then letting the fact escape alongside the landing C/L.,

The excess speed, however, most likely over the limit for any certified landing flap - i.e. either without the landing flap out or inside the red barber pole and possibly both, is still beyond understanding.

[autoflight]

FD,
Long before the engines scrape the crew had already well and truly lost the plot. They were obviously not adequately engaged in flying the aircraft so everything becomes understandable.
I don't think it will be a particularly difficult job for the crash investigators to find the likely human factors and possible crew/company understandings that resulted in the accident. Included in the considerations and the accident report should be:

• crew desire to follow traditions
• crew actual rest and actual sleep
• crew sign on time and 3 hour departure delay at Lahore
• midday temp 42C at Lahore, ambient conditions where crew were waiting, crew health

[MechEngr]

Originally Posted by FlightDetent

and even with the abundance of speed and lift available exactly for that, swept the tarmac yet twice more.

Come to think of it, perhaps they tried to stay on the ground and only abandoned that plan after the third touch, lacking the deceleration (no spoilers, no brakes) and trying not to overrun.

I probably could imagine someone not lowering the gear in the heat of such moment, and then letting the fact escape alongside the landing C/L.,

The excess speed, however, most likely over the limit for any certified landing flap - i.e. either without the landing flap out or inside the red barber pole and possibly both, is still beyond understanding.

My educated guess is that they gave the stick a yank and this deflected the elevator up, immediately producing a force down. While this also produces a pitch moment and eventually causes an increase in the angle of attack of the wing, instantaneously the angle of attack of the wing won't change, so over the short interval it pushes the plane down. A similar thing happens with boats alongside docks. Using hard rudder to turn the bow away from the dock just shoves the boat into the dock.

Had they lowered the flaps a small amount to complement the elevator that would have increased the lift without a change in AoA and gotten them away from the runway to where they could fully use elevator, but it was far too short an event for the crew to work this out after they had managed to get themselves into this situation to begin with.

Anyone have access to a dynamics simulator that can confirm or deny?

[PAXboy]

One of the best examples of 'taking the lead fro the top' is the way that newspapers are run. The behaviour at the top influences the risks they will take on the lowest rung.

The force of social conditioning that prevents a FO from taking control (Gear/Toga/ATC call out) in 2020 is beyond words.

[Uplinker]

Originally Posted by FlightDetent

.............
I probably could imagine someone not lowering the gear in the heat of such moment.........

To a degree, but well before the flare on an A320, you would have had GPWS mode 4A shouting "TOO LOW GEAR. TOO LOW GEAR" audio, with a RED master warning, AND a bloody great big RED down arrow lighting up next to the gear lever. Or would all of that be inhibited if the gear lever had been put down above 260kts?

I will be fascinated to read the CVR to find out how they got themselves into this situation.

[alfaman]

Reply

PAXboy

Excellent summary, quite agree.

[tdracer]

Originally Posted by Uplinker

To a degree, but well before the flare on an A320, you would have had GPWS mode 4A shouting "TOO LOW GEAR. TOO LOW GEAR" audio, with a RED master warning, AND a bloody great big RED down arrow lighting up next to the gear lever. Or would all of that be inhibited if the gear lever had been put down above 260kts?

I will be fascinated to read the CVR to find out how they got themselves into this situation.

Per a previous post, the "TOO LOW GEAR" alert would have been inhibited due to their airspeed - instead they would have gotten the GPWS alert - which could well have simply been dismissed as a nuisance since they were attempting to land.
Given all that apparently transpired during their initial approach - mistaking a 'Too Low Terrain' as a nuisance indication is actually one of the more understandable mistakes they made.

[Terry Dactil]

Obviously doing a landing checklist must be just an option in this airline.
After all, it is cluttered up with all that irrelevant stuff like GEAR - DOWN, 3 GREENS.

[vilas]

The force of social conditioning that prevents a FO from taking control (Gear/Toga/ATC call out) in 2020 is beyond words

well actually it may not be that. Why would he take control if it's common occurrence? There's enough evidence that hot and high approaches is common occurrence may be it's considered macho to do so. Then why would the FO prove that he is less by taking over?
Secondly on local media serious training issues are raised where pilots are able to arrange their PPCs according to their choice. The FO has to be competante enough to be confident to do such an act.

[mayam13]

He said the plane hit the runway momentarily before it was flown upwards. "People began to pray fervently."

Zubair said that the pilot was "searching for empty space" to land the plane but was unable to find any, and the next thing he knew was that the aircraft had crashed. He saw the area "engulfed in flames" and could "hear screams from adults and children alike".

Zubair is a survivor, a mechanical engineer, the other survivor is CEO of Punjab National Bank. The passenger would not now the gear was not down, no emergency was declared by pilot to Tower or to passengers

[Uplinker]

Thanks tdracer

Interestingly, I cannot find the speed graphs for the GPWS functions in the FCOM any more. Probably me being dim.