PIA A320 Crash Karachi
Only half a speed-brake
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That is a possible sequence of events. Chop the thrust, float due to the high speed. Bring the A/C down on the ground with TLs at idle, engines hit the ground, bounce. As the crippled craft is settling down for a second, full touch-down, set TOGA realizing what just happened. The thrust comes back rather quick, but inertia and drag refuse to give up. Kinetically, nothing changes for the next 10 seconds, hence the two more scrapes.
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I find it inconceivable that anyone would attempt to "go" once the "touch" resulted in a loud scraping noise. There was no possible way to know what else would be going wrong after the scraping noise, followed by the "go."
Only half a speed-brake
Has it been established what flaps they had selected for the first approach? At least some, otherwise the overspeed clacker would not be there.
Apologies if this has already been asked and answered but, in the approach profile which the crew seem actually have flown, at what point ought Gear Down to have been selected? And in what ways, if any, would that timing have been different to Gear Down in a more usual approach?
(BTW, I've changed my user name from AGBagb)
(BTW, I've changed my user name from AGBagb)
Last edited by Gary Brown; 9th Jun 2020 at 09:05. Reason: Left something out....
Only half a speed-brake
The approach as flown would need to be abandoned approx 20 miles away from the field, gear up.
You are asking how much water can a broken cup hold.
If the gear was down and full speed brake out with no AP from 20 NM, the energy may have been controlled into a (barely) acceptable final approach entry gate: 9 NM / 3000 FT / 220 kt.
But that would be then a very different approach profile, with only about 1/2 kinetic energy this aircraft seem to have had.
You are asking how much water can a broken cup hold.
If the gear was down and full speed brake out with no AP from 20 NM, the energy may have been controlled into a (barely) acceptable final approach entry gate: 9 NM / 3000 FT / 220 kt.
But that would be then a very different approach profile, with only about 1/2 kinetic energy this aircraft seem to have had.
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, in the approach profile which the crew seem actually have flown, at what point ought Gear Down to have been selected? And in what ways, if any, would that timing have been different to Gear Down in a more usual approach?
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Laptop FS
I asked this ages ago and am sure with the data we have seen, could work through a scenario on a PC/Laptop F Sim/emulator Type thing wether a profile, using different strategies of speed, configuration etc would have allowed them to get back on some profile and even hit the SAC at 500’.....🤔
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I asked this ages ago and am sure with the data we have seen, could work through a scenario on a PC/Laptop F Sim/emulator Type thing wether a profile, using different strategies of speed, configuration etc would have allowed them to get back on some profile and even hit the SAC at 500’.....🤔
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OOI
Just out of interest, in the same way as all the other WAG’s on this Rumour Network, would better CRM have saved the day, if they were Scientologist or seventh day Adventist’s or Buddhists instead of Muslims, a more confident FO, less company pressure on fuel savings, better flying training, more use of automation, less use of automation, titanium skids on the bottom of under wing engines, gearboxes place higher up on the engine, a warning horn being fitted to let you know you’re too fast or too slow, a different warning horn to let you know the “Dunlop’s ain’t dangling” and all the others. Just out of interest.....🤔😇
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Just out of interest, in the same way as all the other WAG’s on this Rumour Network, would better CRM have saved the day, if they were Scientologist or seventh day Adventist’s or Buddhists instead of Muslims, a more confident FO, less company pressure on fuel savings, better flying training, more use of automation, less use of automation, titanium skids on the bottom of under wing engines, gearboxes place higher up on the engine, a warning horn being fitted to let you know you’re too fast or too slow, a different warning horn to let you know the “Dunlop’s ain’t dangling” and all the others. Just out of interest.....🤔😇
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Basic stick and rudder flying is relatively easy
For many, the very thought of having to resort to hand flying without the crutch of full automatic features, is anathema. When forced by circumstances to disengage the automatics then it is not long before they are in trouble in more ways than one. Their own lack of competency and the company on their backs like a ton of bricks..
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Isn't that the whole problem nowadays? It is not easy to some pilots.
For many, the very thought of having to resort to hand flying without the crutch of full automatic features, is anathema. When forced by circumstances to disengage the automatics then it is not long before they are in trouble in more ways than one. Their own lack of competency and the company on their backs like a ton of bricks..
I put problem in apostrophes because as an industry we are far safer now, despite vastly increased traffic and significantly decreased experience levels. The same reliance on automation and FBW that has degraded the manual skills has also contributed to the safety. Yes, we continue to see silly accidents like this one seems to be and AF447 etc, but on the whole we are far better off than we were before.
Last edited by zero/zero; 9th Jun 2020 at 16:21.
Isn't that the whole problem nowadays? It is not easy to some pilots.
For many, the very thought of having to resort to hand flying without the crutch of full automatic features, is anathema. When forced by circumstances to disengage the automatics then it is not long before they are in trouble in more ways than one. Their own lack of competency and the company on their backs like a ton of bricks..
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Automatics?
Yes but it’s not just about handling the aircraft raw (if on this baby bus you can still call any of it that) 
but there are, as has been hinted at many times, techniques which I’ve found are nowadays not taught either....but by manipulation of the automatics you can achieve way differing results. Spoiler/speed brakes, open descent, selected v managed speed, gear, VS with all the modes available even missing TOD there’s a whole box of tools there to get you back on profile and the passengers (unless you leave it way way too late won’t notice much difference) 😇
I’ve seen new FOs with no idea because nobody ever showed them in the sim or on subsequent line training what else they could use to correct a situation and more so were often prepared to argue vehemently and with huge authority, that to do some of these things was out and out wrong? 😇
but there are, as has been hinted at many times, techniques which I’ve found are nowadays not taught either....but by manipulation of the automatics you can achieve way differing results. Spoiler/speed brakes, open descent, selected v managed speed, gear, VS with all the modes available even missing TOD there’s a whole box of tools there to get you back on profile and the passengers (unless you leave it way way too late won’t notice much difference) 😇I’ve seen new FOs with no idea because nobody ever showed them in the sim or on subsequent line training what else they could use to correct a situation and more so were often prepared to argue vehemently and with huge authority, that to do some of these things was out and out wrong? 😇
Last edited by Axel-Flo; 9th Jun 2020 at 19:00.
de minimus non curat lex
There was simply substantial impairment of brain function.
I am hoping the AAIB are courageous enough to release full uncensored details to give insight into this wholly preventable tragic accident.
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I imagine the scenario is more a hard landing and bounce at such a high rate of descent, followed by go around and gear up command, then aircraft hits the runway again which explains the scrapes at 4500 and 5500 down the runway.
Can't imagine it happening any other way.
Can't imagine it happening any other way.
Pegase Driver
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I also was thinking exactly that , having seen a couple of times aircraft announcing go around on the R/T before the flare but still touching briefly the runway afterwards. (i.e witnessing tires smoke plumes..)
There is no regulation that says a touchdown after the commencement of a go-around cannot occur.
Any go-around that occurs in the very late stages of an approach to land should be accompanied by an expectation that the aircraft could touchdown.
Any go-around that occurs in the very late stages of an approach to land should be accompanied by an expectation that the aircraft could touchdown.