PIA A320 Crash Karachi
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See the I-NEOT AAIB report elsewhere on this site.
Were the crew fasting? Did "cultural practices" come into play? Or is it true that any crew, from any airline, from any part of the world, can get it badly wrong given the right combination of unfortunate circumstances?
[I can't manage the technical task of uploading the AAIB report but hopefully someone can...]
Were the crew fasting? Did "cultural practices" come into play? Or is it true that any crew, from any airline, from any part of the world, can get it badly wrong given the right combination of unfortunate circumstances?
[I can't manage the technical task of uploading the AAIB report but hopefully someone can...]
It was during ramadan.
One of the trainees was a muslim and as so he was following ramadan rules.
We used to perform our training flights in the afternoon, after the lone aircraft carried out its morning duties, benefiting of lower morning temperatures for heavy lift operational transports.
The ramadan-following guy was already under hipoglycemic effect when we started flying and was unable of even the most basic duties. I ended telling him that he had to choose between ramadan and flying, because both were incompatible. He finally chose to fly, thus drank and ate normally, and his flight status greatly improved.
I'm still wondering whether these two unfortunate guys at the controls of PIA 8303 were fit to fly (which would be terrible considering the way they managed that fateful flight) or under ramadan-induced health reduction. And I'm still surprised we don't have any data about their personal conditions the 12-24 hours before their fateful end, nor nobody seems to wonder about...
Last edited by homebuilt; 3rd Jun 2020 at 19:23.
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Ramadan fasting could have been an important factor, but it will be difficult to measure , as lack of transparency could prevail. BEA will have to settle with CVR and FDR, i´m afraid , as digging deep into "fasting culture" in muslim countries companies could become impossible...
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I remember flying as a junior F/O with a very senior executive Pilot. His first words in the pre-flight briefing were; “ I don’t fly much , so don’t let me f@ck up.” Total respect from then on.
But then that is in Australia................
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About 25 years ago, as I was a C130 instructor in the french air force, I spent some time in Africa for giving two copilots instruction in order for them to be upgraded as captains.
It was during ramadan.
One of the trainees was a muslim and as so he was following ramadan rules.
We used to perform our training flights in the afternoon, after the lone aircraft carried out its morning duties, benefiting of lower morning temperatures for heavy lift operational transports.
The ramadan-following guy was already under hipoglycemic effect when we started flying and was unable of even the most basic duties. I ended telling him that he had to choose between ramadan and flying, because both were incompatible. He finally chose to fly, thus drank and ate normally, and his flight status greatly improved.
I'm still wondering whether these two unfortunate guys at the controls of PIA 8303 were fit to fly (which would be terrible considering the way they managed that fateful flight) or under ramadan-induced health reduction. And I'm still surprised we don't have any data about their personal conditions the 12-24 hours before their fateful end, nor nobody seems to wonder about...
It was during ramadan.
One of the trainees was a muslim and as so he was following ramadan rules.
We used to perform our training flights in the afternoon, after the lone aircraft carried out its morning duties, benefiting of lower morning temperatures for heavy lift operational transports.
The ramadan-following guy was already under hipoglycemic effect when we started flying and was unable of even the most basic duties. I ended telling him that he had to choose between ramadan and flying, because both were incompatible. He finally chose to fly, thus drank and ate normally, and his flight status greatly improved.
I'm still wondering whether these two unfortunate guys at the controls of PIA 8303 were fit to fly (which would be terrible considering the way they managed that fateful flight) or under ramadan-induced health reduction. And I'm still surprised we don't have any data about their personal conditions the 12-24 hours before their fateful end, nor nobody seems to wonder about...
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Last edited by vilas; 4th Jun 2020 at 06:55.
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And whichever all errors / violations that can have been previously done on any flight, I’m still sticking to the idea that good body / brain conditions can save the day.Join Date: Mar 2005
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It appears (from family interviews) that pilots were fasting.
There are also claims from multiple media sources that the Captain had been rejected previously by the airline Psychiatrist as "not fit for duty". The captain went outside of the country and brought a different psychiatrist result instead.
There are also claims from multiple media sources that the Captain had been rejected previously by the airline Psychiatrist as "not fit for duty". The captain went outside of the country and brought a different psychiatrist result instead.
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Yep, I may have missed your point, because I’ve no example in my mind of any other approach so badly managed, nor in Europe, nor anywhere else in the world. And whichever all errors / violations that can have been previously done on any flight, I’m still sticking to the idea that good body / brain conditions can save the day.
And whichever all errors / violations that can have been previously done on any flight, I’m still sticking to the idea that good body / brain conditions can save the day.de minimus non curat lex
The obvious difference is that this B737 Captain, albeit late in the day, took control and flew the G/A and landed from the second approach.
The other obvious difference is that the Bristol Aerodrome Controller instructed a G/A (iaw MATS part one protocols).
This list of ‘differences’ is not exhaustive........as others may well point out.
Not entirely convinced that you are comparing ‘apples &/with apples’....?
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there is a you tube clip of a journalist who is ranting about the systematic problems within the Pakistan aviation industry with the typical issues that plague the sub continent (nepotism, pull & contacts & fake stuff). Laced into this is the comment on him failing his evalauation. It is an Urdu English mix & more of a rant of a Covid home bound person than someone with an inside view.
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there is a you tube clip of a journalist who is ranting about the systematic problems within the Pakistan aviation industry with the typical issues that plague the sub continent (nepotism, pull & contacts & fake stuff). Laced into this is the comment on him failing his evalauation. It is an Urdu English mix & more of a rant of a Covid home bound person than someone with an inside view.
Mubashar Luqman has been associated with the largest media houses in Pakistan as an investigative journalist and TV anchorperson. He's been with Business Plus, Express News, Dunya TV, ARY Digital, Samaa, etc. He has his own production and advertising company, owns two small private aircraft, and is a licensed pilot. He rose to fame because of his investigative journalism, inside news due to his connections, breaking political/corruption scandals, etc.
I am no fan of his (due to his biased political views and aggressive attitude) but to call it the "rant of a Covid home bound person" would be ridiculous. Besides, he is not the only source of this news.
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On 22 May 2010, a Boeing 737-800 passenger jet operating Air India Express Flight 812 from Dubai to Mangalore, India, crashed on landing at Mangalore. The captain had continued an unstabilized approach, despite three calls from the First Officer to "go around", resulting in the aircraft overshooting the runway, falling down a hillside and bursting into flames. Of the 160 passengers and six crew members on board, 158 were killed (all crew members and 152 passengers) and only eight passengers survived.
...For 110 minutes the CVR had picked up no conversation from the pilots, with the report adding that the sound of nasal snoring and deep breathing could be heard during this recording. The FDR analysis indicated that the flight started its final descent at an altitude of 4,400 feet (1,300 m), instead of the normal 2,000 feet (610 m). The aircraft also touched down at the 4,638-foot (1,414 m) mark on the runway instead of the 1,000-foot (300 m) mark, whereupon the pilot then tried to take off with just 800 feet (240 m) of the runway remaining, which resulted in the crash. Both pilots had been aware of the wrong flight path since they are both heard saying "Flight is taking wrong path and wrong side", while the aircraft's instruments had given repeated warnings of this.
...For 110 minutes the CVR had picked up no conversation from the pilots, with the report adding that the sound of nasal snoring and deep breathing could be heard during this recording. The FDR analysis indicated that the flight started its final descent at an altitude of 4,400 feet (1,300 m), instead of the normal 2,000 feet (610 m). The aircraft also touched down at the 4,638-foot (1,414 m) mark on the runway instead of the 1,000-foot (300 m) mark, whereupon the pilot then tried to take off with just 800 feet (240 m) of the runway remaining, which resulted in the crash. Both pilots had been aware of the wrong flight path since they are both heard saying "Flight is taking wrong path and wrong side", while the aircraft's instruments had given repeated warnings of this.
The French are true diplomats. This is why many countries trust them to handle the information properly when they download these recorders. Like ET.
Being the manufacturing nation this time legally includes the French anyway in this accident investigation.
Being the manufacturing nation this time legally includes the French anyway in this accident investigation.