PIA A320 Crash Karachi
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No, there isn't. A slip up i have seen made by every former boeing pilot at least once was selecting the lower altitude, and then watching astonished that the aircraft did not start to descent. Been there, done it myself, more than once. However, usually that is really a non issue as the bus drops like a ton of bricks if you really want to, much less of a problem getting it down and slow than a 738 for example.
A Bloomberg article citing experts who say that you shouldn't land an A320 gear up at 203 miles an hour.
FlightRadar24’s data suggests that the jet was traveling at 375 kilometers (233 miles) per hour when it reached the runway and slowed to about 327 kilometers per hour as it lifted off.
So far, they are insisting that 200 KIAS during the GA isn’t incompatible with their 314 KTAS value. At sea level ?? Really ??
I suppose the moral is that you can have all the data in the world, and still not understand any of it.
de minimus non curat lex
If so, what protocols existed to ensure that any “shortcoming trends”
are nipped in the bud.
ICAO Annex 6 mandates that all airlines are required under regional legislation to implement Flight Data Monitoring (FDM) programs. These are supposed to identify trends, such as frequent unstabilised approaches at a particular airport or other exceedances, which are passed onto the relevant department for appropriate action, such a restriction, change of SOP or more emphasis on a particular area during simulator training.
The data is anonymous, unless something flags up as warranting tea and biscuits. In this case the guilty party receives an invitation to the office for a frank exchange of views on company procedures with a management pilot. This exchange is mostly one way and the management pilots view is normally the accepted one, unless the other pilot has an alternative means of paying his bills.
The data is only useful if it is interpreted properly and corrective action taken.
The data is anonymous, unless something flags up as warranting tea and biscuits. In this case the guilty party receives an invitation to the office for a frank exchange of views on company procedures with a management pilot. This exchange is mostly one way and the management pilots view is normally the accepted one, unless the other pilot has an alternative means of paying his bills.
The data is only useful if it is interpreted properly and corrective action taken.
But perhaps they had established on a false glideslope due interception from well above. False glideslopes typically occur at 9 degrees and 12 degrees (normal being 3 degrees). A very high rate of descent would be apparent of course when established on a false glideslope, it’s up to the crew to recognise it as such.
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Despite crew being visual all that time, I would'nt be surprised the least if the bus surprisingly just captured a false g/s signal...
learner . . .
learner . . .
The A320 will happily fly right past TOD and it will not start a descent even if a lower altitude has been set. You need to start the descent yourself. The only trigger you get is a weird «deselerate» message to remind you.
The approach mode engages automatically, except when it doesn’t. You may have to select it yourself.
You will not even get the ILS indications unless you press LS, even if the correct approach has been loaded and frequencies checked.
Some aspects of this aircraft are not user friendly.
The approach mode engages automatically, except when it doesn’t. You may have to select it yourself.
You will not even get the ILS indications unless you press LS, even if the correct approach has been loaded and frequencies checked.
Some aspects of this aircraft are not user friendly.
The approach phase engages automatically when you are in managed nav and you fly over the decelerate icon, the "strawberry", some call it. If you are flying vectors using heading, approach phase will not automatically engage - again, another safety feature, requiring the pilots say so before starting an approach.
Both these functions make perfect sense to me because the aircraft does not know everything and cannot make such decisions on its own. And I think one has to rely on at least one pilot being professional, engaged and awake in commercial operations, otherwise we might as well all give up and let Mr Musk or someone build us pilotless passenger aircraft.
Proper training. Proper testing of pilots. Following proper SOPs and proper CRM does work. We know how to do this now. It is very sad that in 2020, aircraft are still continuing unstable approaches and crashing.
Last edited by Uplinker; 30th May 2020 at 07:28. Reason: Corrected terminology. Thanks vilas
Happens now and then coming in to JFK. Not a big deal since in the Airbus you have a new device called a moving map and actually know where you are. I mean these were professional pilots correct? Do you have to be a old school pilot to still crosscheck altitude at the outer marker and be running 3 to 1 calculations?
The A320 has thoughtful safety features built in to the automation, eg when going into HDG whilst climbing in NAV mode, the CLB goes into open. When descending if HDG is selected the descent goes into V/S at current rate rather than open descent. Also it will not capture the glidepath unless LOC is captured first.
These guys certainly wouldn't be the first to keep on going past TOD, some even keep going past the airport. I knew someone who woke up from a short nap and was puzzled as to why the DME was counting up instead of down, he soon worked it out.
These guys certainly wouldn't be the first to keep on going past TOD, some even keep going past the airport. I knew someone who woke up from a short nap and was puzzled as to why the DME was counting up instead of down, he soon worked it out.
45 pages of comments........ Are we any nearer to knowing whether: a) this was a horrible gear-up landing and go-round, that then got even worse; or b) was this a poorly executed gear-down go-around, with the gear then raised well before a positive rate of climb? The focus here seems more on how they crew got themselves into the mess, without anyone being sure what the mess was they got themselves into.....
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Not automatically descending just because you have reached the computer predicted descent point, is a good thing. ATC might have denied descent clearance - there might be something below you, which the aircraft would hit if it descended without a pilot's say so. The decelerate message is to try not to get too far above the profile.
The approach mode engages automatically when you are in managed nav and you fly over the decelerate icon, the "strawberry", some call it. If you are flying vectors using heading, approach mode will not automatically engage - again, another safety feature, requiring the pilots say so before starting an approach.
Both these functions make perfect sense to me because the aircraft does not know everything and cannot make such decisions on its own. And I think one has to rely on at least one pilot being professional, engaged and awake in commercial operations, otherwise we might as well all give up and let Mr Musk or someone build us pilotless passenger aircraft.
Proper training. Proper testing of pilots. Following proper SOPs and proper CRM does work. We know how to do this now. It is very sad that in 2020, aircraft are still continuing unstable approaches and crashing.
The approach mode engages automatically when you are in managed nav and you fly over the decelerate icon, the "strawberry", some call it. If you are flying vectors using heading, approach mode will not automatically engage - again, another safety feature, requiring the pilots say so before starting an approach.
Both these functions make perfect sense to me because the aircraft does not know everything and cannot make such decisions on its own. And I think one has to rely on at least one pilot being professional, engaged and awake in commercial operations, otherwise we might as well all give up and let Mr Musk or someone build us pilotless passenger aircraft.
Proper training. Proper testing of pilots. Following proper SOPs and proper CRM does work. We know how to do this now. It is very sad that in 2020, aircraft are still continuing unstable approaches and crashing.
That said, it is interesting that a 737, even a classic, can automatically switch into the approach phase even on vectors, and does of course descend automatically if a "descend when ready" clearance has been given and the lower altitude has been selected on the MCP (or FCU in airbus speak). It simply makes life easier for the pilot. Of course it does not follow the managed descend profile blindly without a clearance entered into the aircraft system.
Probably quite irrelevant in this instance, but i have been caught out by it, so have many pilots that have switched from boeing to airbus. The airbus requires extra help to do simple stuff, it is in many ways quite old fashioned. Does it explain this case? Obviously not, but it could be a tiny part of the chain.
45 pages of comments........ Are we any nearer to knowing whether: a) this was a horrible gear-up landing and go-round, that then got even worse; or b) was this a poorly executed gear-down go-around, with the gear then raised well before a positive rate of climb? The focus here seems more on how they crew got themselves into the mess, without anyone being sure what the mess was they got themselves into.....
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45 pages of comments........ Are we any nearer to knowing whether: a) this was a horrible gear-up landing and go-round, that then got even worse; or b) was this a poorly executed gear-down go-around, with the gear then raised well before a positive rate of climb? The focus here seems more on how they crew got themselves into the mess, without anyone being sure what the mess was they got themselves into.....
Paxing All Over The World
45 pages of comments........ Are we any nearer to knowing whether: a) this was a horrible gear-up landing and go-round, that then got even worse; or b) was this a poorly executed gear-down go-around, with the gear then raised well before a positive rate of climb? The focus here seems more on how they crew got themselves into the mess, without anyone being sure what the mess was they got themselves into.....
When photographs and video emerged of the runway scrapes, it became clearer that there was not enough time for the full gear retraction cycle to have taken place. Therefore, the gear was never down.
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The "false glideslope" theory holds no water.
ATC queried their position and offered alternatives, the crew's reply was indicative that they knew they were high and would press on with the approach.
It was VMC and being "local" pilots they would know that the view out of the window wasn't normal.
Absolutely NOTHING in the speed and height data looks normal.
As a former ATCO, what does bother me is that the TWR controller wasn't keeping a good eye on his piece of real estate and the customer and missed the runway contact.
ATC queried their position and offered alternatives, the crew's reply was indicative that they knew they were high and would press on with the approach.
It was VMC and being "local" pilots they would know that the view out of the window wasn't normal.
Absolutely NOTHING in the speed and height data looks normal.
As a former ATCO, what does bother me is that the TWR controller wasn't keeping a good eye on his piece of real estate and the customer and missed the runway contact.
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cbfkoh
It looks like fast rushed approach. Attempted fast landing with speed above the inhibiting speed for undercarriage not down and first appreciation of that was when the engines touched the runway.
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There is a system that has worked since the beginning of powered flight to keep it as safe and efficient as possible. Parts of the system are badly disrupted by the current pandemic, and unusual events happen in unusual times.