PIA A320 Crash Karachi

[Lookleft]

But TUNNEL VISION is very powerful and blinding when the pilot flying is just trying to get the bird on the runway.

It wasn't that long ago that an Air New Guinea 737 hit the water when trying to land in a storm at Chuuk. There was video taken by an engineer in the jump seat and showed the whole sequence of events with windshear warnings, too low terrain warnings and a big red weather return over the airfield. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Niugini_Flight_73 The idea that there were multiple warnings going off and that they were being ignored in this accident is highly likely. The least likely explanation is a bizarre sequence of technical failures and that a highly professional crew did their utmost but ultimately couldn't recover the situation.

[compressor stall]

TCAS design engineering meeting sometime in the 80's:

"Right, let's make the threshold 159kt. No-one will ever be trying to land faster than that without wheels. All in favour say Aye"
"Aye"
"Aye"
"OK that's it then."

Somewhere on a rocking chair in the sunroom of a house, with a throw rug on his lap is a retired engineer shaking his head today.

[tcasblue]

Originally Posted by Grav

It would really surprise me if this really happened, because it is (or should) be well known to Airbus pilots that SRS and Go-Around mode do not activate if the thrust levers are not advanced in the TOGA detent. If for any reason the thrust levers are not properly set, the PF would notice immediately that something is wrong on the FMA, because he would still see the normal modes that guide the aircraft in the landing phase.

There was a near crash at one company on a go-around where the initiating issue was the selection of MCT instead of TOGA.

[ExSp33db1rd]

Common , guys, forget this idea of having ATC checking if the gear is down or not. .we are not in a small local VFR local airport checking Bonanzas.. We are talking large civil multi runways airports with large capacity .

I've already tried to explain - but my post was moderatored out - that San Francisco ATC , also not a small local VFR local airport checking Bonanzas, once advised me that my Boeing 747 was approaching finals with "No Gear". Not forgotten, deliberately held due to a flap problem under investigation that necessitated an eventual go around to a second successful landing approach.

I absolutely agree that it is not an ATC responsibility, but no ATC guy wants a disaster to close his runway if he is in a position to do something about it.

[TriStar_drvr]

This accident appears to have some similarities to the US Bangla crash in Kathmandu a couple years ago. A Captain seems to get tunnel vision, is determined to get on the runway, and ignores multiple aircraft warning systems including a gear unsafe warning, eventually driving the aircraft onto the runway in no position to make a normal landing. In the US Bangla crash the Captain also ignored the First Officers commands to go around. Perhaps the same in this one too, to be determined once the voice recorder is recovered.

[Toruk Macto]

Has the CVR been found ?

[ExSp33db1rd]

Has the CVR been found ?

I've read that it has, but incomplete, which rather defeats the crash proof design ? One has to wonder ........ ? Cynic ? Moi ?

[0ttoL]

Originally Posted by Toruk Macto

Has the CVR been found ?

This seems like another reason to move towards having CVR & FDR data streamed via satellite to the cloud.
Yes, I know that it is a lot of data, but we have to start with something.
We can't have another MH370 and other cases where the FDR/CVR can't be found/retrieved for whatever reason.

[krismiler]

If the "RETARD" call had occurred at 20', and I can find no reference that having the gear up would prevent it, the PF automatically retards the thrust levers just like on every other landing. When the go-around decision is made the levers have to go from 0 through CL and MCT detents before TOGA i.e. 3 clicks. With a go-around in the air the levers go from CL through MCT into TOGA i.e. 2 clicks. That extra step can easily be omitted as most missed approaches occur before the levers have been retarded. As stated in an earlier post, this was a baulked landing and possibly extra training is needed to differentiate them.

CRM training has largely been successful in western countries, in the past there were problems particularly during the 1960/70s with former WW2 RAF pilots in BOAC/BEA/BA. Older PPruners might recall the "bomber buggers" who commanded their crews in the same manner as they would on a bombing mission in a Lancaster. Unfortunately some airlines still lag well behind in the CRM area.

[Global Aviator]

Kris I disagree. When I flew the bus a go around was pushem all the way forward, not counting clicks not looking at positions. Balls to the wall so to say. Even a GA from fairly high, at least this way you know you get TOGA (with FMA check of course). Then depending where when what you can bring them thingies back to CL or wherever you fancy.

Simple - GO AROUND = to the firewall son!

[Toruk Macto]

Makes me smile , crossing the threshold at 200+ knots in a 320 and your waiting for the thing to say retard so you can bring the thrust levers back .

[ExSp33db1rd]

Balls to the wall so to say.

I agree that that should be the procedure, tho' I know nothing about the Airbus ( and don't need / want to ! ) but I was early told "Everything forward for speed " i.e. Throttles, Mixture, Pitch, Flaps etc. " When in doubt, lash out "

Older PPruners might recall the "bomber buggers"

Undoubtedly ! " We do NOT use Christian names on the flight deck, MR. XXXX " I was once admonished.

[krismiler]

Agreed, last go-around I did I mashed the levers into the stops and got a nice pitch up and strong push in the back as the engine noise rose. This may not have happened with the PIA flight though, possibly he felt two clicks like he did in the SIM and confirmation bias took over.

[krismiler]

Undoubtedly ! " We do NOT use Christian names on the flight deck, MR. XXXX " I was once admonished.

You're not wrong there !

You Tube

A relative of mine worked for BEA in those days as ground staff and said "Good morning" to a Captain as he walked past him in the corridor. Response was "People like you don't talk to people like me."

Unbelievable these days, but 40-50 years ago things were different.

[Ollie Onion]

Who counts the clicks? If you need full power or are commencing a go-around you slam those levers forward like you want to push them though the nose, finesse not required or helpful.

[Terry Dactil]

So is the whole landing checklist now optional, or is it just the "Gear - Down, 3 Greens" bit ? /sarc

[Airbubba]

Update from ARY News in Pakistan:

PK-8303 crash: Investigators to begin forensic examination; search for missing voice recorder

Salah Uddin

On May 28, 2020KARACHI: The investigation team of Airbus comprising French experts will begin the forensic examination of evidences collected from the crash site of Pakistan International Airlines (PIA) plane PK-8303 on Thursday (today), ARY News reported.

Sources told ARY News that the Airbus probe team will spend a busy day in Karachi as per schedule which includes the investigators will re-visit control tower, approach and radar control centres besides conducting a forensic examination of evidences using modern technical equipment.

The investigation process will be continued as the French experts and officials of Pakistan International Airlines (PIA) and Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) will also resume search for the missing cockpit voice recorder of the Airbus 320 aircraft.

The investigators are still in search of cockpit voice recorder which is unrecovered so far. It has been decided to expand the area of search for early recovery of the voice recorder which is crucial to proceed with the probe.

The investigation team has been handed over the task of special inspection of the crash site to trace out the missing voice recorder.

Investigators will also get the assistance of staff associated with PIA engineering, technical ground support and CAA vigilance departments.

The aviation experts will expedite probe into the available evidences collected from the airport’s runway to the crash site of the ill-fated plane besides collecting more proves.

The visiting foreign experts reviewed the arrangements at the radar centre for the take-off and landing of aircraft. Moreover, the investigation team also inspected different equipment at the radar room besides witnessing the process of landing and take-off of the planes.

The Airbus team questioned on-duty air traffic controller during the visit, as well as visited control tower. Sources told ARY News that the foreign investigation team reviewed regulations regarding the emergency landing call.

Except for two survivors, all 97 passengers and crew members of the aircraft that crashed into a residential area near Karachi airport were confirmed dead. However, no resident of the Model Colony’s Jinnah Garden, where the plane crashed, was among the deceased.

https://arynews.tv/en/pia-plane-cras...oice-recorder/

[DaveReidUK]

Originally Posted by ExSp33db1rd

I've read that it has, but incomplete, which rather defeats the crash proof design ? One has to wonder ........ ? Cynic ? Moi ?

There was a photo published (can't remember where) of the FDR, showing all of the electronics (the cuboid bit) missing, but the memory unit (the cylindrical bit) intact, albeit battered. The latter is the only part that needs to survive, and I would fully expect that the data will be retrievable.

[ATC Watcher]

The investigators are still in search of cockpit voice recorder which is unrecovered so far.

So not found yet. Seen where the accident site is located , a money reward would probably speed up the recovery .

Sorry for off topic : on the BEA old video posted ( thanks for that one krismiller ) the FE calls "V2 plus" . For those here old enough to remember , was that an early 707 procedure of another local BOAC addition ? never heard this before ..

[seafury45]

Krismiler post #785

Things may have been more formal 50 years ago but basic politeness was still in vogue. I am sure that the captain who replied in that way always had difficulty getting help with problems. Groundstaff have their own sense of justice.